Please ad anything you know about "coiled compact florescent bulbs".

[ZEROPILOT]

Almost every day it seems that a new member will post about a tortoise with eye issues and we trace it back to coiled compacts. It's easy to "parrot" warnings about these bulbs and warn people. (I'm using myself as the example here.)
I must admit, that I know very little about the actual facts. I have no first hand experience with them. (My torts live outside.) But I would feel neglectful to not warn new members. Especially since it seems that 9 out of 10 of them can trace the issue back to one of those lights.
It is the way that these bulbs concentrate and project the light? The wave length?
And is it just the high powered ones or even the lower wattage units?
Please excuse my lack of light bulb knowledge here. But I think that a lot of us are in the dark as to why exactly and what the issues seem to be.
Thanks in advance for your story of either a tortoise injured by these bulbs or for your explanation or theory of the cause.

 

[sibi]

Well, when I first became a tortoise owner, I bought coil bulbs for the UVA/B. Over a short period of time, I noticed that my two baby sulcatas were having issues with their eyes. They had some discharge coming from their eyes. At first, I thought they had some irritants like the sand I was using in their substrate (I know, that was changed quickly), but it didn't get better after it was changed. Also, the bulb didn't emit enough heat cause it's considered a "cold" light. After 8 months, I joined the forum and changed the lighting. Fortunately, no permanent damage was done,but, there was a scare there for a while. I believe the light waves are too strong for their sensitive eyes. For a more scientific explanation, I'll leave that to the expects. But, from my experience with it, I wouldn't use it ever again on any retile, not only because of the possible damage to eyes, but also it didn't do the job for emitting heat. Mercury vapor bulb does both safely.

 

[mike taylor]

I don't use them personally . But I have seen the effects of them on this forum . Swollen eyes or blind tortoises and bearded dragons . If you do a search someone on here was doing a test on them to prove they are no good . I know @Tom has a lot of first hand experience with this . Maybe we can get @Yvonne G and @Tom to chime in on this .

 

[lisa127]

I don't think anyone ever expected them to supply heat, just as no one expects tube flourescent to supply heat.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Maybe we WILL get somewhere with this here .

It can only happen when we actually READ what is stated only... and not read anything into it. And be as specific as possible with the statements.

[ Unless and/or until we can get everybody to realize that these statements are not truths " Just because one is good.. then 2 must be better or.. just because someone can research or has 'survived' one for a year makes them an authority or EVERY tortoise on the planet has the same needs". - we will have issues with these animals we keep in captivity. ALL PRE-CONCEIVED NOTIONS OR IDEAS WILL HARM OR KILL OUR TORTOISES. ]

As stated.. former 10.0 UVB.. it is a 26 watt -



5.0 UVB 13 Watt -



10.0 UVB 13 Watt -




My experience is with the lowest wattage made ( 13 watt and 26 watt. ) The 5.0 13 watt is over yearling or less diamondback terrapins about 6 inches from the basking area. The 10.0 13 Watt is over the yearling + terrapins. The two 26 watt are over the Ornate terrapin adults about 6 inches from the basking area. These are serious Southern Florida "basking" water turtles that require high UVB intake from sun... NOT diet.

The redfoot ADULTS have one old 26 Watt maybe 15 inches from surface. In the 18 + years of keeping .carbonaria - from hatchlings to 12 year captive adults - I'm yet to see them "bask".. inside or out. The ONLY reason I have ANY lights in their indoor enclosure is so they can see the food. The ONLY time I've seen them under the light [ other than eating ] is when the temps are too low for them. I suspect they think they are going to warm up under the light. Even tho' this is shear speculation.. I suspect if a redfoot is out basking most of the time is because the ambient temps are low.. OR that light is their heat source

Maybe there is something about these MVB [ other than heat ] that invites them to bask... I have no experience with them.

Again I like the "coil" because of the LOW wattage and convenient 'screw-in' design. For the first 25+ years of keeping water turtles and tortoises from most of the different continents / terrain.. swamp.. forrest.. savannah and desert I used the Reptisun 'strip- flor' lamps.

This is the second season using the 'coil' inside. No issues...

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I don't use them personally . But I have seen the effects of them on this forum . Swollen eyes or blind tortoises and bearded dragons . If you do a search someone on here was doing a test on them to prove they are no good . I know @Tom has a lot of first hand experience with this . Maybe we can get @Yvonne G and @Tom to chime in on this .

Tom keeps sulcata.. and has stated that if no issues personally then don't be concerned. Common sense?

AGAIN.. we have to keep this in focus! What wattage are these keepers frying those bearded dragons and tortoises eyes out with???

READ the instructions folks!!!!!

 

[Kori5]

I had it for a month. It wasn't until I posted a picture of my enclosure and you @ZEROPILOT asked me if I have a coil bulb. I searched the net and realised I have. I thought I got one of the best uv bulbs on the market. Well, my tortoise wouldn't bask and his eyes were swollen. I replaced it as soon as possible and got a uv tube instead. Now he basks normally and is such a happy little tortoise. Thank you for saving his eyesight .

 

[Anyfoot]

I had it for a month. It wasn't until I posted a picture of my enclosure and you @ZEROPILOT asked me if I have a coil bulb. I searched the net and realised I have. I thought I got one of the best uv bulbs on the market. Well, my tortoise wouldn't bask and his eyes were swollen. I replaced it as soon as possible and got a uv tube instead. Now he basks normally and is such a happy little tortoise. Thank you for saving his eyesight .

Can you remember exactly what coil bulb it was?

 

[wellington]

I have never used them and won't. I will not risk my animals eyes/sight to save a few bucks. My only experience with them is only what I have seen on this forum to others tortoises that did use them. I don't need hard core let's prove it myself to learn what is good and what isn't.
Some don't have problems with them. I'm glad for them. I'm not willing to risk my torts to find out if they are lucky or not

 

[Kori5]

Can you remember exactly what coil bulb it was?

Yes it was this one.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I had it for a month. It wasn't until I posted a picture of my enclosure and you @ZEROPILOT asked me if I have a coil bulb. I searched the net and realised I have. I thought I got one of the best uv bulbs on the market. Well, my tortoise wouldn't bask and his eyes were swollen. I replaced it as soon as possible and got a uv tube instead. Now he basks normally and is such a happy little tortoise. Thank you for saving his eyesight .

Kori5 you need to tell us the age and species and where and how close to the substrate you had it.

IF it was a little one 3" or less.. and IF you had the bulb LESS THAN 18" from the substrate surface .. and especially IF it was a forest-type tortoise - then I would like to strangle the person who advised you to use that bulb! That bulb is an extremely bright bulb that is designed for 'desert-type' enclosures.. quite a distance from any reptile in it.

Strip-type flor. bulbs are very "low-light".

 

[Markw84]

Almost every day it seems that a new member will post about a tortoise with eye issues and we trace it back to coiled compacts. It's easy to "parrot" warnings about these bulbs and warn people. (I'm using myself as the example here.)
I must admit, that I know very little about the actual facts. I have no first hand experience with them. (My torts live outside.) But I would feel neglectful to not warn new members. Especially since it seems that 9 out of 10 of them can trace the issue back to one of those lights.
It is the way that these bulbs concentrate and project the light? The wave length?
And is it just the high powered ones or even the lower wattage units?
Please excuse my lack of light bulb knowledge here. But I think that a lot of us are in the dark as to why exactly and what the issues seem to be.
Thanks in advance for your story of either a tortoise injured by these bulbs or for your explanation or theory of the cause.

Will try not to sound too technical, but since you asked, I do think for those interested it is worth discussing.

As I have come to understand the issue, it seems to come down to the way fluorescent UV bulbs are made, and what wavelength of UVB is being produced.

We want UV that can stimulate the production of D3. This has been identified as UV from about 265 - 315nm in wavelength. But that is a bell curve with a sharp peak of effective area. The main area of peak effect is the 295-300nm range. Much below 295 becomes extremely damaging.

Our atmosphere eliminates all UV from the sun below 290nm - so natural sunlight even in the most intense area on earth still does not contain UV below290 - 295. But at the short wavelengths of peak bioactivity (295-300nm) the percentage of sunlight is extremely small even though we all see very intense light. So, we are all now used to hearing about the solar index used to warn you on most weather reports of the sun's intensity as an indicator of the need for sunblock and care to avoid sunburn, etc. That's a reading designed to indicate the amount of 295-310nm wavelength, not the intensity of all the light. So this is really what we are interested as the strength we need to control for d3 producing UV. Most basking reptiles even of the most sun-loving types will not bask when that solar index is above about 6 or 7. Here in N Calif mid summer can see a solar radiation index as high as 10 mid day. On the equator you can find a max of about 14 mid day. No place on earth ever reaches above 16-17. Some reptile bulbs were measured at over 30 at a distance of 6".

The wavelength of light a fluorescent produces is controlled by the type of glass used in the tube and the type phosphor used to coat the inside of the tube. Many of the manufacturers of these tubes used a "phototherapy" phosphor in these tubes which emits UVB weighted towards the shorter end of the UVB spectrum than normal sunlight - as low as 270nm. Some also use what is referred to as an "FS" phosphor. This is normally used in bulbs designed to test the UV durability of products to magnify the effects - also as low as 270nm. In fact, they produce some of the UVB in wavelengths shorter than occurs in natural sunlight anywhere on earth. Phototherapy fluorescents are used to kill cells in certain experiments and treatments. So we know the short wavelength UVB Is very dangerous. Some reptile UVB bulbs, on the other hand are manufactured using the type phosphor used in tanning bulb - which do not emit any of that UVB that is "non-solar" or below 295nm. But the spectrum is weighted much more heavily towards the lower wavelengths than sunlight.

So all of the reptile UVB lights emit a much different light than our tortoises would find in nature. It is not a bright and it has proportionally much more UVB than natural light of the same intensity. The addition of a reflective hood will intensify this effect even more. If you do not carefully adjust the proper minimum distances you tortoise can get to the light all UVB lights become dangerous. MVB bulbs in particular emit very high levels, but also an intense heat that help the tortoise know when he's had "enough". Fluorescents don't emit that heat, so if not adjacent to a heat source they are more likely to overexpose if too close. Tube fluorescents or coil type! The issue with coil type seems to be that reflective hoods really compound the effect. With a straight tube - the light and UVB is spread over a wider area per the sq inches of tube producing UV. While a compact fluorescent with its coils or loops concentrates a lot of sq inches in a much smaller space. When that is put in a reflective hood, the light and therefore UVB is disproportionately directed in a very concentrated area. In one test I saw, a Zoo Med 10.0 compact in a reflective hood was actually producing an index reading of 20 at 12" below the tube. That's probably 4 - 5 times the intensity a sulcata would normally bask in in nature - WITHOUT the heat of the sun giving exposure clues.

Many manufactures say have changed the way they produce these fluorescent bulbs trying to limit the under 295nm wavelengths and it seems most have. However, even at the needed 295 - 315nm wavelength needed for D3 you must be very careful about minimum access distances. And is there a heat source stimulating basking cues to start and stop? Type of reflector used, etc, etc. The age of the bulb as we all talk about a lot is also key. A 6 month old bulb puts out maybe 50 - 60% as much UVB as it did when new.

I would tend to bet a large majority of the problems can be traced to the intensity and placement of the light with the newer tubs now available. And they are even making stronger, and stronger high intensity bulbs now even if they have less to no under 290nm emitted. It still is a question of quantity over time.

So, if we have to use an artificial UVB source what do we do? For me - An investment in a solar meter to watch your reading is really the best bet. NO matter what type light you use. Actually the type that measures solar index not light intensity because it is the best way to gauge the amount of UVB emitted, not total light.

I am really not an expert, so these are just my thoughts as to where I am on this subject. But it has been as result of quite a lot of research.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Thank you Mark.. so that's another way of saying in layman's terms.. 'coils can be too intense when used incorrectly'?

 

[Markw84]

Yes. You are correct - proper use and placement. However, MVB and tubes with greater and greater intensities need caution just as much. Coils and loops do concentrate the UVB production over a smaller area.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Alright...this ain't no parrot. I had 3 yearling Sulcata tortoises when I moved here to the PNW. I used Repti Glo. Over a short period of time all 3 had runny eyes, not eating, lethargic, etc. I started putting Terramycin eye ointment in 3 times a day. About that time I adopted out one of the 3, within 48 hours his eyes were almost fine. I adopted out #2 but he was already blind in one eye. I do not know how he is now. This was 6 or 7 years ago. Tony Stewart (#3) had terrible problems with his eyes. I of course got rid of the bulb, but his eyes were flame red and hurt him so bad he would mew and drool. He'd rub those sore eyes on his thorny legs. He hurt so bad it would make me cry. I put used tea bags on his eyes, gave him shots of Metacam for the pain. And the Terramycin. This went on for months. Mucho bucks at the Vet and we did everything we could think of to do. The light was too close and pointing straight down. That was the initial problem. I wish I still had the link that explained the whole problem. Bet Cameron has it.
He was blind when he found his forever home. And in my defense, those bulbs were not known to cause trouble yet, I was among the forefront of the badness, I think.
But it is/was my personal experience those bulbs are trouble and I will never use one again. I actually blinded a tortoise, think about it. Ya want to believe me or not, go ahead take a chance on your torts sight. Try those cheap a** bulbs. See how it looks like the bulb is supposed to hang straight down, it's on the freakin box that way. But they need to be horizontal. Anyway, that's my story. It was a horrible experience for me, but poor Tony was in serious pain and lost his sight

 

[Kori5]

I have an adult Hermanni tortoise, 20 years old . And of course it was placed on the right height, I've read their manual and placed it on the heigh they recommended. It was 45 cm measured from the top of his shell. As soon as I got rid of it, his eyes returned back to normal . So that is my evidence and I would never ever again buy that crap.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Yes. You are correct - proper use and placement. However, MVB and tubes with greater and greater intensities need caution just as much. Coils and loops do concentrate the UVB production over a smaller area.

Seems like I've heard this ( typed this ) before Mark! An example of the error ... " Just because one is good.. then 2 must be better..."!!! Trying to make it better by intensifying the effort?

I'll always remember about the guy that told me about burning a brush pile after he poured about a gallon of gasoline on it before lighting it - when he did.. it blew up in his face!!! He told me he will never use gasoline to start a fire again. He blamed it on the gasoline!

I'm certainly not suggesting using gasoline to start a fire - just know what you're dealing with when we use anything!!!

 

[Markw84]

Kori and Maggie: Thanks so much for your personal experience and input here. That's what I was hoping from when I saw this thread. A mixture of information and personal experiences not just "I heard you shouldn't use those".

The problem as Terry suggests is trying to separate the emotion of the experience and look at all the possible contributing factors.

There was a problem 5-8 years ago with the very manufacturing as they were emitting some actual UVC. But even with that corrected do we still have a problem beyond placement. For example, the recommended height now posted on all the bulbs by the better manufacturers who have worked on this problem is still given without consideration for placing the bulb in a reflective hood - which can at least double the UVB at a given distance. Is that causing or contributing to some of this? If so, how will it then apply to MVB and HO (high output) tubes and now metal halide?? Is MVB really the better choice because it is safer UVB? Or is it perhaps that MVB emits the heat that tells the tortoise he's had enough? Are tubes really safer UVB or is it that they distribute the UVB over a wider area and the basking light we also include it that case is only getting a portion of the effective UVB emitted. With a coil or loop, as intense as it is, we often put the basking light (heat) immediately next to it so the concentrated, intense UVB is given in much greater doses over the same amount of time?

I think one of our goals on the forum is to explore and learn from our experiences held against the more "testable" knowledge. To further our understanding of husbandry practices that is repeatable, and we can share with others to avoid the mistakes we learn from. I know as painful as some of my mistakes have been over the years with my tortoises, to not really learn from them and find the cause so it might be eliminated in the future would be worse for me.

I think the best example of this is Tom's great work with pyramiding and humidity. Instead of simply yielding to so many stories of respiratory problems they associated with high humidity for a "desert" species, he had to separate the humidity itself from the equation as see if there were other things contributing to the Respiratory issues that could be fixed. The humidity itself was not the problem despite the countless stories and experiences of how bad it was. In fact - there was tremendous value to the humidity.

 

[sibi]

I don't think anyone ever expected them to supply heat, just as no one expects tube flourescent to supply heat.

Yes, but why invest in coil or florescent bulbs when you can get a mercury vapor bulb that provides BOTH heat and UV?

 

[sibi]

Seems like I've heard this ( typed this ) before Mark! An example of the error ... " Just because one is good.. then 2 must be better..."!!! Trying to make it better by intensifying the effort?

I'll always remember about the guy that told me about burning a brush pile after he poured about a gallon of gasoline on it before lighting it - when he did.. it blew up in his face!!! He told me he will never use gasoline to start a fire again. He blamed it on the gasoline!

I'm certainly not suggesting using gasoline to start a fire - just know what you're dealing with when we use anything!!!

You know, Mister, if you prefer the coil bulbs for your creatures, then, you take the risks. But, to blame the owners because they aren't knowledgeable about the functionality of light waves and distances it should be places in an enclosure, even if they followed the manufacture's instruction, is just plain wrong! I'd swear you have stocks with the manufacturer's product! I, and many others here had experiences bad stuff with coil bulbs. And, you, in a sense, are invalidating our experiences because you take issue with our complaints about this type of bulb. You said it yourself; you're not expert. So, let's just leave it at that.

Now Mark, on the.other hand, makes an objective argument concerning the use of coil bulbs. Yes, owners should be careful, but not everyone has a mastery on lengths of lightwaves and intensities, and min.-max nm emitting. Some of us just want the best for our animals. If we are told, you should get this, and you need that, I for one will do some research and determine what works for me and my animals. But, if at pet stores , the only bulbs they have are these coil ones, how can you blame an owner if he gets one and it hurts their animal's eyes? Thank God for this forum!!! There are many here that had bad experiences with these bulbs, myself included, and I object to you blaming the owners. I've said my piece.