Live naked people

[Anyfoot]

Thanks, very interesting. I'll read that again tomorrow when I'm not as tired.

 

[Anyfoot]

So why a pause helps, hugh? I can repeat some of what Iv'e read and offer speculation. All depend on your agreement that evolution is not a result but a process.

Nature throws many small changes at the world as it is at that moment, and some of those small changes make a difference. The theory is those small changes or differences collect over time and result in the aggregation of 'winner' small changes.

So there are no doubt some K.h. eggs that will do well to start incubating and run straight through to hatching, but you don't seem to have those. You have the ones that work with some undefined interruptions (I take it you will try a few things and see which matters most).

One experiment that my sister consulted on (she works with medical isotopes for use in human health therapies and assured me I would not glow if I did this), but the vets at the Philly Zoo would not sign off on, was to incubate eggs side by side of pancake tortoises, one set that had a night time drop and another that did not. The incubators would be in larger enclosures with gas concentration monitors. The oxygen would be radio isotope labeled, and at some point the some eggs would be sacrificed to see if the night time drop eggs had a different accumulation od oxygen isotope after the same number of 'incubator days'. Also would night time drop eggs incubate at a different average number of days, and what would be the robustness of those neonates. "My" idea is that the change in temperature makes the eggs respire, more than at a stable temperature. Respiration is the result of metabolic processes in the egg. It would potentially do two things along two paths. Just pumping the air in and out might accelerate development, and it might also give rest to some processes. This as a thought experiment may be even more complex than narrated, but at least two factors could explain any differences in the observable parameters I hoped to look for. Days to emergence, and robustness. At the time we were generating many pancake tortoises with a high hatch rate.

It is my extreme speculation that pancakes have at least two potential egg incubation optimizations. One with diapause of a cool period and one without, based on the somewhat strange distribution they have in the wild.

As far as cool periods with no apparent development and active development periods, well I don't think that absolutely no development occurs during a cool period. I have not any data to back this up, it is speculation. I think some low temperature mechanisms need to set the egg up for high temperature development.

Another species another story, Pyxis planicauda need a cool period for incubation followed by a warm period. First success used a warm, then cool, then warm again period, which follows the natural (in-situ) temp cycle closely. Some keepers tried putting eggs directly into a cool cycle then the warm and still had success. Placed right into a warm cycle and they had very poor success. So in evolutionary time (history) eggs that wintered over did better, to such an extent that straight warm cycle eggs won. There is only so much 'space' for P.p. that the carrying capacity of the forest where they live got filled up with warm, cool, warm reproducers. Look like that first warm is not super critical, and may even allow for further change where females lay eggs towards the end of the cool cycle (just poking at some imaginative future) so they eggs get a few weeks of cool then develop. Why, less time as an egg means less depredation, means less a million other things that can happen to an egg just sitting there. However maybe females can't get warm enough to do this cool cycle egg laying?

Understanding evolution is similar to crime scene investigation, we are looking after the fact, and trying to come up with a compelling explanation. We don't know the age of the scene or what factors made things happen that are no longer apparent or present. Much explanation in evolution seems to be speculative. But less and less as more bits of data are gathered and reconciled.

Just observing the things is a first big step, then sorting out what they accomplish as a today need or some vestige of a yesterday need is not so easy.

Your proposed experiment of incubating eggs with just a day night temp change and with a cool down as separate factors will take a few years and then the interpretation of your results would be difficult. That you might parse out one of these variables as being more critical, or that they work best in conjunction is cool. I would be whelmed just know that it worked and more eggs hatched.

Just re-read with a fresh mind. Full of info and well written.
I agree, it's logical that ' warm, cool, warm would have similar success rate as cool, warm. The first warm period is just allowing for a larger hatching season but both give that crucial cool period.
I'd never thought of the cool periods allowing breathing and oxygen exchange within the egg. Do you think that a night time drop also achieves the same as an actual prolonged cool diapause? So with nightime lows are we allowing the breathing in smaller amounts but more often.
The one thing I never understood until now is why a diapause, something must be happening during these cooler periods, or what's the point, and there must be a point because pyxis require the cool period for success, this in itself proves there is development in cool period.

Many thoughts will arise for me after reading this, got 2 straight away.
When the eggs are freshly laid are they oxygen rich or does the cool period or night lows finish the actual process of the egg to be successful, then I think, why some species and not others for cool periods, do redfoots for example lay eggs with high oxygen levels and night lows will suffice to make viable eggs.
On and on, deeper and deeper the thought go. It's interesting though, something else to focus on in life.

Thanks.

 

[Anyfoot]

Do we know if all tort eggs are the same when it comes to how porous the egg shells are?
Do some eggs exchange air easier than others due to egg shell density?

Within the same species but from different localities are for example, are the locale that are in the more constant warm/humid climate naturally deficient of calcium resulting in more porous eggs which helps combat the weak air exchange.

On and on.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Do we know if all tort eggs are the same when it comes to how porous the egg shells are?
Do some eggs exchange air easier than others due to egg shell density?

Within the same species but from different localities are for example, are the locale that are in the more constant warm/humid climate naturally deficient of calcium resulting in more porous eggs which helps combat the weak air exchange.

On and on.

There are many common aspects of eggs, but they are different species to species, from different parts of a range, and also diet. Diet calcium source makes for different calcium structure in the shell. Egg retention results in more layers of calcium being applied to the egg.
I don't know of a study that has looked at natural egg clines along the range of any species, but that would be an interesting detail to look at. Maybe for Cal Desert tortoises when they were all one species might show something. I am pretty sure they along with Gopher tortoises probably amount to the most literature on natural history.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I'm keeping all of them for at least several months to 4 inches in length, which comes last. I'll PIT tag them put the number on-line with the stud-booked registered parents and then any one any where can look the number up and see their appellation, including the current studbook keeper, who at that point becomes moot. Tired of dealing with it, but like the information it provides. These guys are F1 and to me that makes them a bit more important than a "flipped" tortoise for those who trade in miss-information based animals.

@David Mount , for some reason I am not able to reply to your PM, some button may need to be switched?

Anyways, I'll sell some when they get big enough to PIT tag. I fear some that were sold in the past have been 're-identified' for profit based disbursement of mis-information. I don't want to contribute to that. These are F1 from known stud-booked WC adults. I'd like that history to follow them.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

On another note, I was away for a week vacationing, sorry of it seems like I gave a deaf ear to anyone. I'm very lucky to have found a local person to take care of my animals while I was away. I'll be replying to inquiries and shipping tortoises again right away.

 

[Yvonne G]

Do we know if all tort eggs are the same when it comes to how porous the egg shells are?
Do some eggs exchange air easier than others due to egg shell density?

Within the same species but from different localities are for example, are the locale that are in the more constant warm/humid climate naturally deficient of calcium resulting in more porous eggs which helps combat the weak air exchange.

On and on.

I saw an interesting story a couple days ago on a national news program. Some students in Japan had hatched chicken eggs in a glass, not in the shell. I've found it on youtube if you're interested:

 

[Anyfoot]

I saw an interesting story a couple days ago on a national news program. Some students in Japan had hatched chicken eggs in a glass, not in the shell. I've found it on youtube if you're interested:

Looks interesting, not sure if this is the same video that Allegra posted.
With all the eggs I'm likely to get, I can't incubate them all, just not the market over here. So I would be the ideal candidate to try this rather than bin the eggs.

@Will
Do tortoises rely on the egg shell to get the carapace shape, or is that formed with vains bridging to the outer most of the yolk?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Looks interesting, not sure if this is the same video that Allegra posted.
With all the eggs I'm likely to get, I can't incubate them all, just not the market over here. So I would be the ideal candidate to try this rather than bin the eggs.

@Will
Do tortoises rely on the egg shell to get the carapace shape, or is that formed with vains bridging to the outer most of the yolk?

You are exploring interest that I have not with this question. Michael Ewert and Ytem(?) have done the most with chelonian eggs in English language papers and I don't recall that either did this. So, it makes me wonder if it really would work, or they just didn't get around to doing this, or they did but chose not to publish?

I'm still stuck on "just not the market over here". But if you must, I imagine there would be many scholars that would like to follow-up with you. The interest to watch the development of anything is always interesting.

 

[Anyfoot]

You are exploring interest that I have not with this question. Michael Ewert and Ytem(?) have done the most with chelonian eggs in English language papers and I don't recall that either did this. So, it makes me wonder if it really would work, or they just didn't get around to doing this, or they did but chose not to publish?

I'm still stuck on "just not the market over here". But if you must, I imagine there would be many scholars that would like to follow-up with you. The interest to watch the development of anything is always interesting.

Will, I meant if I could produce 100 babies I probably couldn't sell 100 babies in the uk.
I may be wrong, not really explored the market to any great extent yet, just the impression I'm getting, we will see when the time comes, Across the channel into Europe is a whole different story.

Anyway, I'm doing this, the curiosity is killing me. Found a polystyrene box,thermostat and a 21w heat Matt.
Just knocked up a makeshift incubator, hit a stumbling block because the thermostat isn't working, so that's going back, still under warranty, but it did reach 40°c, so at least its going to work.
I've not put any air holes in it yet. What do you think, and howmany and where should I put air holes, top and bottom. Any suggestions welcome before I proceed.

In the video Yvonne linked in, why do you think they where pre-stretching the cling film?

 

[Yvonne G]

Oh boy! an experiment!! I'm not sure whether @Will would like for you to start a thread or keep the experiment here. But I'm terribly interested in watching it.

 

[Anyfoot]

Oh boy! an experiment!! I'm not sure whether @Will would like for you to start a thread or keep the experiment here. But I'm terribly interested in watching it.

Regardless Will's input is needed.
I'll start a thread when I've got everything set with the incubator, the female I have that seems to be produced fertile eggs may be due again soon and today she was gobbling up cuttlebone so that's a good sign.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

You know the whole thing of owning threads makes no sense to me. They are all TFO threads.

As for air holes, I would put one or two very small ones near the top and several small ones on the bottom, then plug the bottom ones with loose cotton. I am now fixated on using the air stone as a source of air into the incubator. The water will heat to the incubator temp and help stabilize the interior temp., and provide a stream of fresh humid air. If the warmer air rises up that will draft air in from below. I put something over the holes to keep some sort of spastic little flies out.

 

[Anyfoot]

This is a snap shot of the set up in video.
I'm not understanding some of it.
What is the benzalkonium chloride solution for?
Why the distilled water and calcium lactate?

 

[Anyfoot]

This is a snap shot of the set up in video.
I'm not understanding some of it.
What is the benzalkonium chloride solution for?
Why the distilled water and calcium lactate?

View attachment 190366

I'm guessing the benzalkonium is keeping the air free of bacteria.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

So here is the whole article, and another regarding exploration of the method with quail eggs. I did not read these yet, okay? I only was able to find these with your assistance by printing that one image.

 

[Anyfoot]

So here is the whole article, and another regarding exploration of the method with quail eggs. I did not read these yet, okay? I only was able to find these with your assistance by printing that one image.

Huh, I couldn't find it, and I tried. Yes I know, the whole research thing.

 

[Anyfoot]

Well Will, I didn't realize there was so much going on in an egg. Very interesting and I have much to learn. I've only read the chick culture, not the quail one(yet).
I certainly have questions, where do I start.
I'm assuming we don't need the 8° tilt and 120° rotation that chicks require.
The calcium lactate compensates for what would normally come from the eggshell, and the distilled water is to drip feed the calcium.
We need to you polymethylpentene not clingfilm because this allows oxygen flow and breathing.
How did they get the pure oxygen in there, I now it's through the pipe, but is it a case of it naturally flows through the pipe or do they have a gadget to force it in at 500ml/h. Does the word aerated suggest its just naturally flowing through the pipe.
Oxygen was aerated in on day 17, before this period it reduced viability. Where do we start with air flow(day 1)?
Pre-incubation or not. At what stage can we not rotate a Tortoise egg?
Im not fully understanding the chorioallantoic membrane. Does this membrane develope as the embryo starts to grow?
It doesnt say what the benzalkonium solution is for. The water part of this solution is obviously for humidity, but what's the benzalkonium for.(sterilization maybe).

I'll stop there for now.

I've never googled so many words.

Fascinating stuff.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Well Will, I didn't realize there was so much going on in an egg. Very interesting and I have much to learn. I've only read the chick culture, not the quail one(yet).
I certainly have questions, where do I start.
I'm assuming we don't need the 8° tilt and 120° rotation that chicks require. I agree.
The calcium lactate compensates for what would normally come from the eggshell, and the distilled water is to drip feed the calcium.
We need to you polymethylpentene not clingfilm because this allows oxygen flow and breathing.
How did they get the pure oxygen in there, I now it's through the pipe, but is it a case of it naturally flows through the pipe or do they have a gadget to force it in at 500ml/h.I think you can buy medical grade oxygen at some pharmacies. I use it in anesthesia machines at work, flow rate is not so difficult. But we use very small chambers, the oxygen is a carrier for the chemical that puts the animals under. Does the word aerated suggest its just naturally flowing through the pipe.Maybe an akward translation from Japanese as a first languge?
Oxygen was aerated in on day 17, before this period it reduced viability. Where do we start with air flow(day 1)? No idea?
Pre-incubation or not. At what stage can we not rotate a Tortoise egg? I don't know a days allowed period, but less and sooner is better.
Im not fully understanding the chorioallantoic membrane. Does this membrane develope as the embryo starts to grow?
It doesnt say what the benzalkonium solution is for. It's botha surfacnt and a biocide. The water part of this solution is obviously for humidity, but what's the benzalkonium for.(sterilization maybe).

I'll stop there for now.

I've never googled so many words.

Fascinating stuff.

On the oxygen flow. A small chamber inside the incubator, where it is just big enough for the egg would work. That way the need for oxygen is reduced and safer, and the incubator is still large and has more plasticity to hold a constant temp.

 

[Anyfoot]

Will,. I've managed to get hold of everything I'm going to need. The only thing I'm not 100% sure of is the oxygen, or rather how do I get it down the tubes of the vessels, baring in mind there could be half a dozen or so vessels.
Anyway I ran my makeshift incubator to make sure it holds temps ok, and it's perfect. I still haven't put any air holes in the incubator yet, and after about an our I couldn't see through the window due to the humidity(99%). Obviously I can control this with less surface area of water and air holes(I'm thinking of looking for some small simple vents that I can open slightly to control the air and humitiy escaping).
However, why does the actual incubator have to be humid when inside the vessels will be humid. I'm thinking the vessels are acting like the mini incubators minus the heat supply which comes from the incubator.

Something else I was thinking about was why in the chick experiment when they added oxygen prior to the 17th day it reduced fertility.
Does this mean when an egg is first layed the eggshell is at it's least porous, then as the embryo develops and absorbs the calcium from the eggshell it becomes more porous allowing the flow of oxygen to pass through the egg?
Also do you think a Tortoise egg would get less oxygen under the ground than a chick egg under the chicken? Silly question but the answer could lead onto other thoughts.