Live naked people

[Kapidolo Farms]

Pineapple, interesting idea, smell does drive much food interest. I've tried Jack Fruit (not Durian) and that seemed to make no difference. Papaya always scream "TORTOISE FOOD" somehow. Great images. I hope my spekii will do more than eat, $hit, and mate.

Reminds me of the joke about the Panda that stepped into a bar, ordered the 'blue plate' special, then upon exiting shot an inbound patron. The Panda showed the police his excuse in a natural history book when he said, "look it says so right here 'Panda - eats, shoots, and leaves'". Hahahahah

 

[Anyfoot]

They seem to favor what we Brits consider the more exotic fruits. Pineapple, mango and papaya. They love tangerines too, but ive never fed to hatchlings and only once or twice a month to adults.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I'll have to have go at this for my hinges. I've never fed squash or sweet potato. I fed pumpkin before but not squash. Mmm just noticed some butternut squash and sweet potatoes in the veg rack. I'll mix some up now. My adult hinges seem to feed late on. Like 9pm onwards.
Are you keeping any of those M.e.p neonates?

Btw. 3 of my hinge eggs exploded, the ones I put straight into the incubator at 28/29°c. Didn't even chaulk.

I'm keeping all of them for at least several months to 4 inches in length, which comes last. I'll PIT tag them put the number on-line with the stud-booked registered parents and then any one any where can look the number up and see their appellation, including the current studbook keeper, who at that point becomes moot. Tired of dealing with it, but like the information it provides. These guys are F1 and to me that makes them a bit more important than a "flipped" tortoise for those who trade in miss-information based animals.

 

[Anyfoot]

@Will. Need to pick your brains again. I'm assuming anything goes in this thread seen as none of it lives up to the thread title.

What is a diapause and its purpose. I'm not fully understanding it.
I am under the impression its a cool period within an incubation time. My hinges are said to require a diapause before incubation.
But surely if a female was to lay let's say 3 clutches over a 3 month period then at least 1 clutch would not endure the cool diapause period.
Trying to figure out if my eggs that blew were due to no diapause period or no night time drop. I need a better understanding of what a diapause period does to the egg, I'm sort of thinking how can the 'diapause' be consistent in the wild.

If a clutch is laid and this first clutch goes through a 4wk cool diapause period then comes the warmer weather and a 2nd clutch is laid at the end of that 4 wks the 2nd clutch is laid in the warmer weather with no diapause.
I'm thinking it's the night lows that's playing a bigger part.
HELP.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

An sincere question is nudity. I wrote a pretty full explaination about diapause here on TFO somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

An sincere question is nudity. I wrote a pretty full explaination about diapause here on TFO somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/diapause-explained.100188/

There was at least one study I read regarding three stripe mud turtles where within one population single clutch females laid consistently year to year as one of three strategies, early spring, late spring, and late summer, all resulting is very variable emergence of neonates. The potential benefit is that predators have no way to correlate anything to an abundance of baby turtles as food. This is quite the opposite of the timed emergence of 1000's of sea turtles which overwhelm predators.

It is ultimately the stochastic attempt to survive with a net of strategies, and what we see are the winning ones, modified some little bit with each cohort.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

They seem to favor what we Brits consider the more exotic fruits. Pineapple, mango and papaya. They love tangerines too, but ive never fed to hatchlings and only once or twice a month to adults.

My adult Manouria browse the low fruit on my lemon tree and eat was falls to the ground.

 

[Anyfoot]

My adult Manouria browse the low fruit on my lemon tree and eat was falls to the ground.

Never tried lemon, but I will do.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

The tally of eggs out of Medea's 2016 reproductive adventure.

Four eggs pre nest (4), Three eggs during nesting (3), (46 or 47 seen in the radiograph at the vet's), 38 eggs laid with oxytocin induction, a few more found dribbled out after oxytocin induction.

7 eggs before or during nesting and 46/47 in radiograph = 53/54 eggs total, unless I missed some pre radiograph eggs, which would be a higher count.

Only the 38 eggs laid with induction did not collapse during incubation.

24 eggs hatched, two neonates died in the brood box, 22 are now eating and scrambling around in an enclosure.

Of the 12 eggs that failed to hatch four (4) showed no early development as far as I can determine with simple dissection, eight (8) had early death embryos (very small semi developed tortoises).

I did not mark the eggs for their progression in being laid during oxytocin induction. Many eggs had several calcium layers that exfoliated. The guys that died in the egg had this too, but most (not all) did not exfoliate any layers of calcium, maybe they died due to poor gas exchange of water exchange during development, Just a guess on that. What complicates this guess is that some that did hatch also had layers of shell, and are doing okay even though those layers did not exfoliate.

In a few months when they are bigger, or when they reach about four inches I'll PIT tag them all and post those numbers here and on free international PIT tag registries for however long those web sites and/or the internet lasts.

Medea and Darth are both wild caught tortoises with a great many shared phenotypical traits that are not shared by Phae who was bred at the Honolulu Zoo in 1983. Medea and Phae are the adult females, Darth is the male.

Medea and Darth's offspring are F1 captive bred and so are a good contribution to the North American Studbook process. I'll refer the Studbook keeper to these stats and from here they can either enter them or not.

As a past Studbook Keeper I am okay with describing many studbook keepers as petulant. It's not that damn hard to keep and maintain a studbook for chelonians. Imagine trying to do one for so many other much more promiscuous animals and all of a sudden any chelonian is a snap easy studbook to keep.

Hatch dates ran 14/15 August 2016 through to today when I examined the unhatched eggs. Last 'doer' hatched 24 August 2016. So now we all know . . .

 

[Anyfoot]

The tally of eggs out of Medea's 2016 reproductive adventure.

Four eggs pre nest (4), Three eggs during nesting (3), (46 or 47 seen in the radiograph at the vet's), 38 eggs laid with oxytocin induction, a few more found dribbled out after oxytocin induction.

7 eggs before or during nesting and 46/47 in radiograph = 53/54 eggs total, unless I missed some pre radiograph eggs, which would be a higher count.

Only the 38 eggs laid with induction did not collapse during incubation.

24 eggs hatched, two neonates died in the brood box, 22 are now eating and scrambling around in an enclosure.

Of the 12 eggs that failed to hatch four (4) showed no early development as far as I can determine with simple dissection, eight (8) had early death embryos (very small semi developed tortoises).

I did not mark the eggs for their progression in being laid during oxytocin induction. Many eggs had several calcium layers that exfoliated. The guys that died in the egg had this too, but most (not all) did not exfoliate any layers of calcium, maybe they died due to poor gas exchange of water exchange during development, Just a guess on that. What complicates this guess is that some that did hatch also had layers of shell, and are doing okay even though those layers did not exfoliate.

In a few months when they are bigger, or when they reach about four inches I'll PIT tag them all and post those numbers here and on free international PIT tag registries for however long those web sites and/or the internet lasts.

Medea and Darth are both wild caught tortoises with a great many shared phenotypical traits that are not shared by Phae who was bred at the Honolulu Zoo in 1983. Medea and Phae are the adult females, Darth is the male.

Medea and Darth's offspring are F1 captive bred and so are a good contribution to the North American Studbook process. I'll refer the Studbook keeper to these stats and from here they can either enter them or not.

As a past Studbook Keeper I am okay with describing many studbook keepers as petulant. It's not that damn hard to keep and maintain a studbook for chelonians. Imagine trying to do one for so many other much more promiscuous animals and all of a sudden any chelonian is a snap easy studbook to keep.

Hatch dates ran 14/15 August 2016 through to today when I examined the unhatched eggs. Last 'doer' hatched 24 August 2016. So now we all know . . .

Sounds good Will. What sort of size would these guys have to reach before they can be sexed. Be interesting to see what sort of ratio you ended up with.
Any photos available?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Sounds good Will. What sort of size would these guys have to reach before they can be sexed. Be interesting to see what sort of ratio you ended up with.
Any photos available?

Have you ever seen bits and pieces of a movie over several showings, maybe not even in time order of the movie, but not seen the whole movie straight through? That's what I got going on here. I've read most of the literature that is in English, and spoken with many folks both living and now passed regarding the natural history of this as well as many other species of animals with an emphasis on chelonians. That has not left me shorthanded. This one year I have produced near or more hatchlings than these had produced in the previous 20 + years, so the book knowledge has not hurt, my own listening skills of others' experience is a boost as well. If I learned one thing from my father it is to be able to actually listen.

Just the way I incubated the eggs was novel based on what is written and what I have heard from others. No telling if it was harmful or helpful?? I could have done a much better job documenting many seemingly silly bits of information to better know so much.

Anyhow - I don't know at what size I will be able to discern males from females. There is quite a bit of size and weight difference among the hatchlings, now neonates. Some are much more aggressive feeders than others based on my limited time to watch them. That is some run to the new pile of food while others throat pump air, then slowly amble on over to eat. Some go right for the yellow/orange foods, some for the pellets, and some are still occupied with a constant almost ambush depredation on isopods.

The mulberry angel visited again recently and so I put many leaves in, last week and I can here the eating that as well. I know well the benefit of somewhat crowded enclosures for new hatched chelonians, one that eats seemingly inspires another to do so. As the more bold eaters start to prevail, they are going to be separated out into more enclosures until I have five or six per enclosure. I'm a bit worried they may decide to start trying to eat each other, I at one time bred Florida Box turtles and those little neonates will sooner eat an enclosure mate than an over abundance of food.

I will probably hold back a few that are the ends of the bell curve on my husbandry for growth, and see what sex distribution may come along.

 

[Anyfoot]

Have you ever seen bits and pieces of a movie over several showings, maybe not even in time order of the movie, but not seen the whole movie straight through? That's what I got going on here. I've read most of the literature that is in English, and spoken with many folks both living and now passed regarding the natural history of this as well as many other species of animals with an emphasis on chelonians. That has not left me shorthanded. This one year I have produced near or more hatchlings than these had produced in the previous 20 + years, so the book knowledge has not hurt, my own listening skills of others' experience is a boost as well. If I learned one thing from my father it is to be able to actually listen.

Just the way I incubated the eggs was novel based on what is written and what I have heard from others. No telling if it was harmful or helpful?? I could have done a much better job documenting many seemingly silly bits of information to better know so much.

Anyhow - I don't know at what size I will be able to discern males from females. There is quite a bit of size and weight difference among the hatchlings, now neonates. Some are much more aggressive feeders than others based on my limited time to watch them. That is some run to the new pile of food while others throat pump air, then slowly amble on over to eat. Some go right for the yellow/orange foods, some for the pellets, and some are still occupied with a constant almost ambush depredation on isopods.

The mulberry angel visited again recently and so I put many leaves in, last week and I can here the eating that as well. I know well the benefit of somewhat crowded enclosures for new hatched chelonians, one that eats seemingly inspires another to do so. As the more bold eaters start to prevail, they are going to be separated out into more enclosures until I have five or six per enclosure. I'm a bit worried they may decide to start trying to eat each other, I at one time bred Florida Box turtles and those little neonates will sooner eat an enclosure mate than an over abundance of food.

I will probably hold back a few that are the ends of the bell curve on my husbandry for growth, and see what sex distribution may come along.

I wise man once told me when you want to learn, ask a question then shut up and listen. More often than not the person answering the question(if really knowledgeable) will fill you with more info than you expected, no point interrupting them when you are learning. Let them speak. IT WORKS.

That bit about box turtles is scary, I'll keep an eye on these hinges because they can be feisty at times.

Thanks for the information Will. I've learnt a lot from this experience of yours.

 

[Anyfoot]

@Will.

I'll just briefly jog your memory, 1st 10 hingeback hatchlings had a diapause before incubation and night time lows during incubation.
2nd 10(same parents) went straight into the incubator with no diapause and no night time drops, nothing but complications.
3 eggs blew.

1 egg produced twins which 1 of them was dead as the other pipped then that one died.

4 eggs hatched with weights as low as 15g, 3 of these are not thriving anywhere near as well as the 1 and the first 10 hatchlings.

1 egg still in incubation and way over due.

1 egg just split and gave of the worst smell I've ever endured. This was a partially developed neonate. Photos are below, may seem grose but you may be able to shed some light on why a pause in development happens.
First thing I'm going to do next is make an incubator like yours with nightime drops and have no diapause. Hopefully this will tell me what's most important, diapause or temp drop offs(maybe it's both).

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Weekend quick post. Manouria food fest.

 

[Anyfoot]

Weekend quick post. Manouria food fest.

It's an 'all you can eat buffet'. Excellent photos. Really serrated, didn't expect that.

 

[Yvonne G]

...a murder of crows...a herd of elephants...a rumble of Dodges...a buffet of Manouria babies!!!

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

It's an 'all you can eat buffet'. Excellent photos. Really serrated, didn't expect that.

And those serration shred rubber gloves as well, they are sharp. Response to hinge-back interest tomorrow.

That much food a day, or I worry they will start in on each other, the split up is today.

 

[Anyfoot]

And those serration shred rubber gloves as well, they are sharp. Response to hinge-back interest tomorrow.

That much food a day, or I worry they will start in on each other, the split up is today.

Really, they will eat all that. Got me paranoid I'm not feeding enough now.
Is it because the manouria are a ferocious species or do you apply that method to all species?

 

[MichaelaW]

Really, they will eat all that. Got me paranoid I'm not feeding enough now.
Is it because the manouria are a ferocious species or do you apply that method to all species?

I have the emys and they are incredibly social, even during feeding.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

So why a pause helps, hugh? I can repeat some of what Iv'e read and offer speculation. All depend on your agreement that evolution is not a result but a process.

Nature throws many small changes at the world as it is at that moment, and some of those small changes make a difference. The theory is those small changes or differences collect over time and result in the aggregation of 'winner' small changes.

So there are no doubt some K.h. eggs that will do well to start incubating and run straight through to hatching, but you don't seem to have those. You have the ones that work with some undefined interruptions (I take it you will try a few things and see which matters most).

One experiment that my sister consulted on (she works with medical isotopes for use in human health therapies and assured me I would not glow if I did this), but the vets at the Philly Zoo would not sign off on, was to incubate eggs side by side of pancake tortoises, one set that had a night time drop and another that did not. The incubators would be in larger enclosures with gas concentration monitors. The oxygen would be radio isotope labeled, and at some point the some eggs would be sacrificed to see if the night time drop eggs had a different accumulation od oxygen isotope after the same number of 'incubator days'. Also would night time drop eggs incubate at a different average number of days, and what would be the robustness of those neonates. "My" idea is that the change in temperature makes the eggs respire, more than at a stable temperature. Respiration is the result of metabolic processes in the egg. It would potentially do two things along two paths. Just pumping the air in and out might accelerate development, and it might also give rest to some processes. This as a thought experiment may be even more complex than narrated, but at least two factors could explain any differences in the observable parameters I hoped to look for. Days to emergence, and robustness. At the time we were generating many pancake tortoises with a high hatch rate.

It is my extreme speculation that pancakes have at least two potential egg incubation optimizations. One with diapause of a cool period and one without, based on the somewhat strange distribution they have in the wild.

As far as cool periods with no apparent development and active development periods, well I don't think that absolutely no development occurs during a cool period. I have not any data to back this up, it is speculation. I think some low temperature mechanisms need to set the egg up for high temperature development.

Another species another story, Pyxis planicauda need a cool period for incubation followed by a warm period. First success used a warm, then cool, then warm again period, which follows the natural (in-situ) temp cycle closely. Some keepers tried putting eggs directly into a cool cycle then the warm and still had success. Placed right into a warm cycle and they had very poor success. So in evolutionary time (history) eggs that wintered over did better, to such an extent that straight warm cycle eggs won. There is only so much 'space' for P.p. that the carrying capacity of the forest where they live got filled up with warm, cool, warm reproducers. Look like that first warm is not super critical, and may even allow for further change where females lay eggs towards the end of the cool cycle (just poking at some imaginative future) so they eggs get a few weeks of cool then develop. Why, less time as an egg means less depredation, means less a million other things that can happen to an egg just sitting there. However maybe females can't get warm enough to do this cool cycle egg laying?

Understanding evolution is similar to crime scene investigation, we are looking after the fact, and trying to come up with a compelling explanation. We don't know the age of the scene or what factors made things happen that are no longer apparent or present. Much explanation in evolution seems to be speculative. But less and less as more bits of data are gathered and reconciled.

Just observing the things is a first big step, then sorting out what they accomplish as a today need or some vestige of a yesterday need is not so easy.

Your proposed experiment of incubating eggs with just a day night temp change and with a cool down as separate factors will take a few years and then the interpretation of your results would be difficult. That you might parse out one of these variables as being more critical, or that they work best in conjunction is cool. I would be whelmed just know that it worked and more eggs hatched.