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Yvonne G

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Soon to be edited out, Donate money to USARK, then lobby for reptile and amphibian keepers interests to keep herps.



Will: I think you misunderstand. A member can't request funds for themselves or ask donations, etc. but what Evan did in his thread is quite ok. This leaves it up to the member to think for himself whether or not he wants to send $$. I may be wrong, so let's ask @jaizei to help us understand.
 

Yvonne G

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OMG!!! That's just so great.

To keep everyone abreast of the situation:

This group of tortoises used to live here with me. I kept them all (one male and two females) together in a large, rain forest-like yard. I got eggs most years, but only one or two of them would hatch. And cracking open the rest of the eggs showed that they weren't fertile.

Several months ago Darth, the male, suffered an injury that required surgery. Will brought Darth home to San Diego because there is a very good tortoise vet in San Diego. And Darth has been there ever since.

Then Will came up here to pick up some leopard babies and when he went home he took the two females home with him. Darth was VERY happy to see the girls...and the rest is now history!
 

Anyfoot

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Most of the eggs have popped now. I hope all goes well.

View attachment 183854
Will, your going to have to remind me. Did you incubate the 7 eggs she dropped aswell, or only the 38 she laid. I notice you have virtually covered the eggs too, is there any particular reason for this? Certainly makes sense to do this.
To my reckoning these took about 83/84 days to incubate. Is that the norm for these guys?
 

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Will, your going to have to remind me. Did you incubate the 7 eggs she dropped aswell, or only the 38 she laid. I notice you have virtually covered the eggs too, is there any particular reason for this? Certainly makes sense to do this.
To my reckoning these took about 83/84 days to incubate. Is that the norm for these guys?

All the eggs laid by being pooped out collapsed. There are 38 that were put in the incubator, two are sitting on top of the media, and they look funky. I've not fooled with the eggs as they have progressed through incubation.

There are what I think of as conflicting reports about the outcome of different way to incubate these eggs. Sean McKeown, the first, incubated at 83 F and others are saying they incubate at 88F or so to promote females.

I've never been a fan of a stable temp incubation period, I think it may create it's own problems, I do NOT have a specific speculation on what those problems may be. In Grad school, and when I worked at the Philly Zoo I wrote out a few experiments regarding varying the temp during incubation. I was never able to implement any of those ideas for one reason or another. I have had subsequent communication with some people suggesting varying temps over a 24 hour cycle and through a 'season' has yielded high incubation rates. Though that should not be read as a comparative, they are not higher hatching rates than some 2nd clutch with the more simple single temp incubation.

This is what I did with these guys. I started the incubation at 82/83F and over the course of several weeks increased it up to 88F. Think about what happens to a mounds of decaying vegetation, the temp is no doubt somewhat stable day to day (24 hour cycle) , but increase over the season.

I've have failed to communicate some of these subtle things to many, so just stopped trying. Now that the eggs and adults are here, I can implement what I hope are sound ideas to increase outcome to what I think of as a benefit. We will see though, just because the eggs have pipped and a few are out of the egg is a far different thing than active weight gain and growth after the yolk is all used up.

Right now the few that have come fully out of the egg are still in the incubator in a 'brood' box.

When I set up the incubators I had some time to sort out a few things as well, the advantage of a species that alerts the keeper that eggs are on the way. I put an airstone in the incubators blowing through some water. That way the air turnover was both high and humid. RH stayed at around 84% with sometime going as high as 88% and as low as 76%. I looked every morning and many evenings.

I also set up three of the ZooMed Reptibators well before so I could play around with setting and have a quicker learning curve. regarding the various trials of one way to have high humidity or another. Most ended up with a sweaty box that seemed like it would promote mold.

The idea about the airstone is not 'original' Harold Carty did this ( Isaw his place in the 1980's and later) as does Bill McCord. Airflow through is more important than I think is often considered. The ground 'breathes' on a cycle both monthly with lunar gravitational changes and in 24 hours with sun's warmth and night's cool.

On the other side of consideration is that they all may have hatched at a single temp with static air, who knows?
 

Anyfoot

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All the eggs laid by being pooped out collapsed. There are 38 that were put in the incubator, two are sitting on top of the media, and they look funky. I've not fooled with the eggs as they have progressed through incubation.

There are what I think of as conflicting reports about the outcome of different way to incubate these eggs. Sean McKeown, the first, incubated at 83 F and others are saying they incubate at 88F or so to promote females.

I've never been a fan of a stable temp incubation period, I think it may create it's own problems, I do NOT have a specific speculation on what those problems may be. In Grad school, and when I worked at the Philly Zoo I wrote out a few experiments regarding varying the temp during incubation. I was never able to implement any of those ideas for one reason or another. I have had subsequent communication with some people suggesting varying temps over a 24 hour cycle and through a 'season' has yielded high incubation rates. Though that should not be read as a comparative, they are not higher hatching rates than some 2nd clutch with the more simple single temp incubation.

This is what I did with these guys. I started the incubation at 82/83F and over the course of several weeks increased it up to 88F. Think about what happens to a mounds of decaying vegetation, the temp is no doubt somewhat stable day to day (24 hour cycle) , but increase over the season.

I've have failed to communicate some of these subtle things to many, so just stopped trying. Now that the eggs and adults are here, I can implement what I hope are sound ideas to increase outcome to what I think of as a benefit. We will see though, just because the eggs have pipped and a few are out of the egg is a far different thing than active weight gain and growth after the yolk is all used up.

Right now the few that have come fully out of the egg are still in the incubator in a 'brood' box.

When I set up the incubators I had some time to sort out a few things as well, the advantage of a species that alerts the keeper that eggs are on the way. I put an airstone in the incubators blowing through some water. That way the air turnover was both high and humid. RH stayed at around 84% with sometime going as high as 88% and as low as 76%. I looked every morning and many evenings.

I also set up three of the ZooMed Reptibators well before so I could play around with setting and have a quicker learning curve. regarding the various trials of one way to have high humidity or another. Most ended up with a sweaty box that seemed like it would promote mold.

The idea about the airstone is not 'original' Harold Carty did this ( Isaw his place in the 1980's and later) as does Bill McCord. Airflow through is more important than I think is often considered. The ground 'breathes' on a cycle both monthly with lunar gravitational changes and in 24 hours with sun's warmth and night's cool.

On the other side of consideration is that they all may have hatched at a single temp with static air, who knows?
Very interesting Will. I'm liking that air stone idea, humidity with air circulation.
As for stable temps, with what very little experience I've seen with hingeback eggs, you are correct. Out of 31 eggs.
10 eggs with temperature fluctuations was 100% hatch rate. These 10 ramped up from 24 to 28.5°c as summer kicked in and night time temps dropped. It wasn't a scientific experiment like yours, I just stuck them in the tort room to the peril of the ambient temp of that room.

Then another 10 eggs at a stable temp in the incubator, only 4 hatched.

11 eggs now in incubator at a stable temp 2 have gone rotten, 1 gone mouldy, 7 still on the go, 4 of these look no good to me.
All 31 eggs in exact same substrate.

Next batch I will go back to variable temps but a more scientific approach, I may copy your method.

Thanks. When you talk, I learn. Keep talking.
 

Anyfoot

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@Will. Without going into mega bucks is there an incubator that can be automatically set to drop temps on a timer or will I have to construct something myself.
The problem I will have is ramping the eggs up gradually in a controlled environment. Because homeana only lay 2 to 4 eggs per clutch I'm thinking I will have to set 3 incubators up at 24, 26 and 28.5°c. The 3rd incubator at 28.5°c would also take a night time drop on temps. This way i could have them in incubator 1 and 2 for lets say 4wks each one then into the 3rd and final incubator. I can't just use 1 incubator because I'll never know when the next clutch will be laid.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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@Will. Without going into mega bucks is there an incubator that can be automatically set to drop temps on a timer or will I have to construct something myself.
The problem I will have is ramping the eggs up gradually in a controlled environment. Because homeana only lay 2 to 4 eggs per clutch I'm thinking I will have to set 3 incubators up at 24, 26 and 28.5°c. The 3rd incubator at 28.5°c would also take a night time drop on temps. This way i could have them in incubator 1 and 2 for lets say 4wks each one then into the 3rd and final incubator. I can't just use 1 incubator because I'll never know when the next clutch will be laid.


The multiple incubator system is what I have seen at the local zoo. Reptile Basics sells a temp controller with a night time drop feature. I have to figure there might be a similar device available in the UK or Germany at least.

There is another simple way to do it - have two heating devices in an incubator, one set on a timer for day time and at the high temp, the other on 24 hours/day but set at the low temp. This way when the timer shuts down the day time high temp, the temp will fall until the 24/day heater kicks in. Still something I think you would need to make for yourself.

I used this system to heat a whole room for reptiles many years ago.
 

Anyfoot

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The multiple incubator system is what I have seen at the local zoo. Reptile Basics sells a temp controller with a night time drop feature. I have to figure there might be a similar device available in the UK or Germany at least.

There is another simple way to do it - have two heating devices in an incubator, one set on a timer for day time and at the high temp, the other on 24 hours/day but set at the low temp. This way when the timer shuts down the day time high temp, the temp will fall until the 24/day heater kicks in. Still something I think you would need to make for yourself.

I used this system to heat a whole room for reptiles many years ago.
Problem solved. That's the way I'll do it. Cheers.
 

Anyfoot

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Your method(more natural method) has got me thinking how nature deals with the male to female ratio.
I'm not sure if this knowledge is known yet but I'll ask anyway.

Because in nature temps fluctuate when is temperature sexing determined?
Is it a case of pot luck when the temps coincide with the critical development stage of the embryo on every clutch.
Or is it determined throughout the laying season. For example my homeana lay upto 3 clutches over a period of 3 months. Each clutch can take up to 4 months to hatch(from what I've seen up to now). This means from laying of the 1st and hatching of the 3rd clutch can cover a 7 month period. Is it a case of in the wild as they lay the 1st clutch the local climate is at its warmest giving higher female ratio then as the last clutch develops towards the end of the season and the climate is cooling off a bit it gives a higher male ratio.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I forget the specifics of the study, but there is a time point i the development when sex is determined and before ad after have no bearing, at least for the species studied. Sex varies for where in a natural nest the eggs sat, Some nest are laid in areas with more shade than others, different kinds of sand and soil transmit heat differently. Chelonias have survived at least two mass extinction events and many drastic climate cycles. I think the failing is people like to eat them.
 

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Another guess the salad. This image is like the last one, but now not just for pancakes, leos, and Egyptians which already got the leafy greens. This has now been made interesting for hingebacks, Forstens and Manouria - oh my. Three kinds of yellow/oranges added and also virtually invisible, I'll just give it up, one mashed up banana for stickyness so the dried mulberry leaves stick to everything else.

1472051971644.jpg
 
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Kapidolo Farms

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That makes sense, Googled it and loads of hot chicks in super hero uniforms came up.
That's funny. :D
Loads of hot chicks
images
 

Anyfoot

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Another guess the salad. This image is like the last one, but now not just for pancakes, leos, and Egyptians which already got the leafy greens. This has now been made interesting for hingebacks, Forstens and Manouria - oh my. Three kinds of yellow/oranges added and also virtually invisible, I'll just give it up, one mashed up banana for stickyness so the dried mulberry leaves stick to everything else.
Squash, rocket,romaine lettuce, spring greens, maybe spinach.
 

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Squash, rocket,romaine lettuce, spring greens, maybe spinach.
Wow, yeah, Spring mix that has some spinach, rocket (arugula), romaine, dried bits of mulberry leaves, collards, and the then yellows/oranges include butternut squash, yellow summer squash (yellow zucchini), and sweet potato. I got a hand crank vegetable shredder and it has a potato chip blade, so the yellow/oranges were cut up with that, they fluff in with the greens real well. I added a couple tablespoons of Vionate today for all, and the sub-portion for the neonate M.e.p.'s had some moistened aquatic turtle food mixed in. I added many hundred isopods (some are left) into the neonate M.e.p. enclosure as well as some red earthworms (all of which are gone).

Many of those M.e.p. neonates had their shells somewhat twisted up from the half hatched position they sit in as their yolk was absorbed. All straightened out now. Three have extra vertebral scutes or split scutes, all the other (many) have normal carapace scute arrangements. They are all getting that predatory cat look to their little faces too. Leo neonates are puppy cute, the M.e.p. are maybe badger cute babies. Hahahahahlolololo
 

Anyfoot

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Wow, yeah, Spring mix that has some spinach, rocket (arugula), romaine, dried bits of mulberry leaves, collards, and the then yellows/oranges include butternut squash, yellow summer squash (yellow zucchini), and sweet potato. I got a hand crank vegetable shredder and it has a potato chip blade, so the yellow/oranges were cut up with that, they fluff in with the greens real well. I added a couple tablespoons of Vionate today for all, and the sub-portion for the neonate M.e.p.'s had some moistened aquatic turtle food mixed in. I added many hundred isopods (some are left) into the neonate M.e.p. enclosure as well as some red earthworms (all of which are gone).

Many of those M.e.p. neonates had their shells somewhat twisted up from the half hatched position they sit in as their yolk was absorbed. All straightened out now. Three have extra vertebral scutes or split scutes, all the other (many) have normal carapace scute arrangements. They are all getting that predatory cat look to their little faces too. Leo neonates are puppy cute, the M.e.p. are maybe badger cute babies. Hahahahahlolololo
I'll have to have go at this for my hinges. I've never fed squash or sweet potato. I fed pumpkin before but not squash. Mmm just noticed some butternut squash and sweet potatoes in the veg rack. I'll mix some up now. My adult hinges seem to feed late on. Like 9pm onwards.
Are you keeping any of those M.e.p neonates?

Btw. 3 of my hinge eggs exploded, the ones I put straight into the incubator at 28/29°c. Didn't even chaulk.
 
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