Yellows,reds and cherries

[Anyfoot]

Hi all

I've read a lot on red,yellows and cherryheads and there wild habitat, some info out there is quite conflicting.

I would like to here from anyone and everyone what they know of there wild habitat.

I understand nothing is black and white but I am lead to believe that yellows and cherryheads live in the deep cover of the rain forest but yellows will venture out into the savannas at times and the Bolivian reds lives on the outskirts of the rain forest but spend a lot of time in savanna areas. Is this true. I assume that deep within a rain forest it is far more humid than in the savannas. Would appreciate any info and could do with some really detailed info on there natural habitat.

Does anyone have any photos of these species in there natural habitat?


Thank you all in advance

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I have a book somewhere. Back before I found this site, books were all I had. The book mentioned that Red Footed and Yellowfooted tortoises shared mostly the same areas but that both had a very wide range of areas and different environments. I also know that Yellow footeds don't like as much heat and direct sunlight. JUST READ THAT, ACTUALLY.
(I'm told mine are all Colombian.)
I believe that babies need much more humidity and the adults tend to roam.
I never heard of a "Cherry" head before I arrived here. Is it a hybrid or a real sub species? I've never asked.

 

[Anyfoot]

I have a book somewhere. Back before I found this site, books were all I had. The book mentioned that Red Footed and Yellowfooted tortoises shared mostly the same areas but that both had a very wide range of areas and different environments. I also know that Yellow footeds don't like as much heat and direct sunlight. JUST READ THAT, ACTUALLY.
(I'm told mine are all Colombian.)
I believe that babies need much more humidity and the adults tend to roam.
I never heard of a "Cherry" head before I arrived here. Is it a hybrid or a real sub species? I've never asked.

Well before I came to this forum I thought there were yellowfoot, northern reds(colombian) and brazillian reds(cherryheads) I also read somewhere about blackfoots but i'm guessing this is someones version of a really dark coloured red because i've never heard these spoke about on here.
We need some experts. @cdmay @HLogic @tortadise @N2TORTS and there's more experts I know.

 

[HLogic]

One of the best references I have seen regarding habitat is: http://www.amazon.com/dp/3899736036/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

Use Google Earth or another mapping app to take a look at the satellite imagery of the ranges of the critters. Don't forget to take a gander at the photos taken locally to get a better idea of what the environs actually look like. Oh, and remember, rain forest does not necessarily equate to tropical jungle nor does the term forest in their ranges. Think dry forest, scrub, chapparal, etc. for the red-footed and more along the lines of tropical jungle for the yellows. Ecotone is another VERY important concept in understanding habitat for many species.

 

[Anyfoot]

One of the best references I have seen regarding habitat is: http://www.amazon.com/dp/3899736036/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

Use Google Earth or another mapping app to take a look at the satellite imagery of the ranges of the critters. Don't forget to take a gander at the photos taken locally to get a better idea of what the environs actually look like. Oh, and remember, rain forest does not necessarily equate to tropical jungle nor does the term forest in their ranges. Think dry forest, scrub, chapparal, etc. for the red-footed and more along the lines of tropical jungle for the yellows. Ecotone is another VERY important concept in understanding habitat for many species.

I'll look at google map when I get home from work tonight. I am going to order that book again, I did order it once to discover it was in German and just managed to cancel it in time.

 

[HLogic]

I'll look at google map when I get home from work tonight. I am going to order that book again, I did order it once to discover it was in German and just managed to cancel it in time.

There is an English version. The ISBN is: 978-3899736038 (the one in the link is English)

 

[tortadise]

It can vastly differ depending on locality of species your looking into. Gran chacos for instance, are a much more dryer savanna red foot than a Guyana, Venezuelan, or columbian. Same goes for dendiculata. You have certain populations that inhabit the Guyana shield where flood levels can rise 20-30 (even up to 50 feet in southern Guyana along Essequibo river) feet during the wet season. Down in South America you have dry forests, wet forests, cloud forests, evergreen forests, and savannas along first edges that creates a numerous dense canopies.

 

[tortadise]

You can take a map of dendiculata/carbonaria and overlay it to a map like above and start researching from there. But in captivity most carbonaria/dendiculata will have very close husbandry requirements and food intake items,

 

[cdmay]

Another good source of habitat information are the various articles on Chelonoidis in RADIATA magazine. If you google DGHT RADIATA you can access the archives in both English and German and then purchase the back issue you would like.
I know that there are at least a couple of specific articles regarding the harsh climate of the Paraguayan Chaco region as well as at least one or two about the habitat in Guyana or Suriname.
One article discusses the big Chaco red-footed tortoises surviving in Paraguay during the brutal dry season.

Of course, Peter Pritchard's classic Turtles of Venezuela is a must have and it is still available for around $50.00.

Another in depth study of both red and yellow-foot tortoises in northern Brazil is Debra Moskovits' doctoral thesis done back in 1983 or thereabouts. I was able to get a second copy of it from University Microfilms but I'm sure there are other similar outfits that supply such things.

 

[Anyfoot]

There is an English version. The ISBN is: 978-3899736038 (the one in the link is English)

Book is ordered. Thanks.

 

[CharlieM]

This reminds me why redfoots do so well in South Florida.

 

[naturalman91]

I have a book somewhere. Back before I found this site, books were all I had. The book mentioned that Red Footed and Yellowfooted tortoises shared mostly the same areas but that both had a very wide range of areas and different environments. I also know that Yellow footeds don't like as much heat and direct sunlight. JUST READ THAT, ACTUALLY.
(I'm told mine are all Colombian.)
I believe that babies need much more humidity and the adults tend to roam.
I never heard of a "Cherry" head before I arrived here. Is it a hybrid or a real sub species? I've never asked.

to my knowledge it's a real subspecies but the the bloodlines have gone a little stray from people keeping "normal" red's with cherries so a lot of them around here at least are hybrid mix of the two which because they basically are the same species there's no major health problems to my knowledge of the mix breeding but i don't know enough about breeding what i've seen tho doesn't seem harmful just hurting the bloodline purity

there are a lot of people that separate the two tho and have pure lines like me if i kept them i'd separate my cherries from my northern

i know practically nothing about yellowfoots tho other then they're a close cousin of redfoots

 

[Turtlepete]

I never heard of a "Cherry" head before I arrived here. Is it a hybrid or a real sub species? I've never asked.

Simply a locality just like Columbian, Bolivian, Paraguayan, etc.. It's possible the redfoot clades could be several sub-species but to my knowledge there isn't anything to support this currently, so for now it's pretty much geographical variation that you will see in any species with such a large range.

Don't forget red's also inhabit several Caribbean islands. Whether human-introduced or there naturally is up for debate. Supposedly they range into extreme southern Panama as well.

 

[Anyfoot]

For the purpose of this post only I'm talking about the ADULT NORTHERNS.

So I have done a small amount of research into there environment and it varies vastly. Lets say for example the Northern(columbian,bolivian etc) they go from dry Savannah's and forests to tropical forests and very wet conditions, very dense and wide open spaces. Does this mean that the Northern is a very hardy tortoise and can put up with most conditions. Or does this mean in theory I should find out the locality of each of my redfoots and provide them with what they would have in there natural wild local area. Does this mean I could be providing any one of my redfoots with a high humid low light evnironment when actually he/she could be native to a wide open savannah that is dry and humid with plenty of light and grass,shrubs and prickly bushes to get cover from, and not in a dark humid, moist, canopy type enclosure. Or do they move around in that vast amount of areas that they cover every encounter every type of environment, mmm so if I provide both types of habitats it would be best of both for them. I have got to sit down and study this species in depth and will take me ages, when I start reading up on these the day just disappears

Here are a 4 of the heads of my northerns. Can anyone tell where there locality originated although I'm guessing even that's not entirely accurate because they could already been crossed from 2 different localities and so on. Sorry not very good photos.

 

[HLogic]

Images of the sides of the head and plastrons would help ID the locale but effectively still would be guessing.

Some of the insular locales are known to have been introduced, some *may* not have been.
I wouldn't consider Bolivians as "northern" and only the most eastern of Colombians - Venezuelan & Guyanan would be included.

Keep researching and if you ever have the opportunity to visit the native range of any of the locales; by all means, do so!!

I keep RF's, YF's and CH's all in essentially the same conditions. There are provisions for cover, exposure to open sunshine, etc. but I have large outdoor enclosures which make it feasible and much easier to have it all available at the same time.

 

[tortadise]

Images of the sides of the head and plastrons would help ID the locale but effectively still would be guessing.

Some of the insular locales are known to have been introduced, some *may* not have been.
I wouldn't consider Bolivians as "northern" and only the most eastern of Colombians - Venezuelan & Guyanan would be included.

Keep researching and if you ever have the opportunity to visit the native range of any of the locales; by all means, do so!!

I keep RF's, YF's and CH's all in essentially the same conditions. There are provisions for cover, exposure to open sunshine, etc. but I have large outdoor enclosures which make it feasible and much easier to have it all available at the same time.

I strongly agree with this art. Now I do keep my locale specific specimens segregated from other locales. To me I view the "gran Chaco" Bolivian/Paraguayan local as a phylogeographic animal. Same principles as pardalis. Not enough evidence to support "babcocki" a separate species from "pardalis" but among the 13 regions they carry minor genetic differences. To me a locale specific animal should held with similar locality for breeding. But in part if this doesn't happen in captivity purposes it's not an issue. For ex situ to in situ reintroduction however, this is a crucial barrier to uphold. But very few and far between for that.

 

[Anyfoot]

Images of the sides of the head and plastrons would help ID the locale but effectively still would be guessing.

Some of the insular locales are known to have been introduced, some *may* not have been.
I wouldn't consider Bolivians as "northern" and only the most eastern of Colombians - Venezuelan & Guyanan would be included.

Keep researching and if you ever have the opportunity to visit the native range of any of the locales; by all means, do so!!

I keep RF's, YF's and CH's all in essentially the same conditions. There are provisions for cover, exposure to open sunshine, etc. but I have large outdoor enclosures which make it feasible and much easier to have it all available at the same time.

Do you have your RF, YF an CHs in the same large area? , and at the moment I can only dream of visiting a native range. Wait till kids are a bit older and I will for defo.

 

[Anyfoot]

I strongly a tree with this art. Now I do keep my locale specific specimens segregated from other locales. To me I view the "gran Chaco" Bolivian/Paraguayan local as a phylogeographic animal. Same principles as pardalis. Not enough evidence to support "babcocki" a separate species from "pardalis" but among the 13 regions they carry minor genetic differences. To me a locale specific animal should held with similar locality for breeding. But in part if this doesn't happen in captivity purposes it's not an issue. For ex situ to in situ reintroduction however, this is a crucial barrier to uphold. But very few and far between for that.

So how do you know your reds of a certain locality are pure breed from that locality? Are they wild caught from a specific locality. They must take some looking after with them all separated.

 

[tortadise]

So how do you know your reds of a certain locality are pure breed from that locality? Are they wild caught from a specific locality. They must take some looking after with them all separated.

Yes they're all WC except for some captives I raised up from offsprings. Many years back a good friend of mine imported them from known locales. Lots of commercial importers just import and say where they're from. This can sometimes be very untrue as animals can easily be (and done a lot)smuggled across borders to a nation with valid export of species. Dendiculata is one of them. Guyana/Suriname is the only country that can validly export WC dendiculata. Peru will only allow them out with valid cites if captive bred.

Yep I have 6 separate indoor/outdoor enclosures for the carobonaria kept here. Two separate enclosures for dendiculata.

 

[Anyfoot]

Yes they're all WC except for some captives I raised up from offsprings. Many years back a good friend of mine imported them from known locales. Lots of commercial importers just import and say where they're from. This can sometimes be very untrue as animals can easily be (and done a lot)smuggled across borders to a nation with valid export of species. Dendiculata is one of them. Guyana/Suriname is the only country that can validly export WC dendiculata. Peru will only allow them out with valid cites if captive bred.

Yep I have 6 separate indoor/outdoor enclosures for the carobonaria kept here. Two separate enclosures for dendiculata.

Wow. So people smuggle them across boarders to countries that its legal to ship out to wherever. So why isn't it policed by experts who know the differences in locality to stop the smuggling.
How many different dendiculata and carbonara localities are there. Is this known?