Tortoise Mythbusters Part 2!

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Madkins007

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Welcome to the second season of Tortoise Mythbusters, where we take comments made about tortoises and see if we can prove or disprove them on the basis of good scientific principles!

Today's topic: "Red-foots are forest tortoises".

This is a commonly seen statement and seems to drive a lot of care recommendations- 'Red-foots are sensitive to light', 'Red-foots need fruit or meat', etc. because they are considered a rain forest animal.

BUSTED. While Red-foots are found in the deep forest in some places, their distribution is more weighted to habitats AROUND the rain forests and rain forest openings. If you look at a map of their range and South American land uses, most of their range is to the north and to the south of the Amazon Basin rain forest zone.

Most researchers and authors say the same thing. Part of the problem is that most writers use the word 'tropical' to describe the wild habitats and it is easy to see that and assume 'rain forest', but tropical simply means that it lives in the 'tropical zone' of the world between the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn.

Part of the problem is that we don't know as much about this species as we would like to. We don't know the exact range, possible subspecies, hatchling behavior, etc. Part of the problem is our casual use of the word 'forest', again, which implies rain forest while much of the habitat is scrub forest, thorn forest, and other types of habitat.

Still not convinced? In South America, the common name for the Red-foot is 'Savannah Tortoise'. The Yellow-foot is the 'Forest Tortoise'. In other words, the people who live with them recognize this basic difference.

There are some implications for cares with this. Red-foots do experience seasons- although they are not as extreme as ours. They also get a lot of light, including UVB, from the wild. They are not particularly light sensitive- although hatchlings of all tort species are shy, and it is easy to over-light any tortoises cage.

Bottom line- Red-foots are not ANTI-forest species, but an adaptable species that is at home in a wide variety of habitat... just mostly the 'wet savannahs' for most if its range.
 

DoctorCosmonaut

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Thanks for the post. I kinda knew that, but its still interesting.

You never addressed your meat comment. Can you expand on that?
 

Madkins007

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Meat- there is a perception that Red-foots NEED meat in their diet. In the wild, they eat a lot (up to about 10% of their diet by weight) of things like invertebrates, termites, butterflies, and old carrion. Actual stool samples indicate that what we usually think of as 'meat' is only a very small part of the diet. Most of what we offer for meat is pretty fresh, 'rich', and often rather fatty compared to their wild fare.

Sure, given a chance, they will dine on fresh-killed meat until they are stuffed, but then they go and sleep it off for a few weeks.

I think a more fair statement would be to say to offer insects freely, with very occasional other meat options.
 

81SHOVELHEAD

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Controvesy UVB or no UVB ,
Hello
I'm am not an expert by no means, since i've only had my 2 Red foots for 6 weeks.
Bought a male & female the week b4 Christmas
SCL = 4.5 On Male 4.0 on female
Set them up in a 40 gallon criter keeper using 75 watt halogen bulb and under tank heat mat for heat & lighting.
Coconut coir & mosser lee moss as substrate.
Temps 90's under halogen light ,80's on cool end using digital probe thermometer to monitor
Humidity 70's to 90's
These torts were sluggish & I did not feel they were eating as well as they should be.
After Vet visit & parasite free fecal sample i was thinking just maybe UVB may help these little guys.
Being a beardered dragon owner, i come to appreciate the powers of the MV bulbs .
Ordered Mega ray 100 sb from reptileuv.com and replaced halogen with Mega-ray.
This light is shining through screen top on critter keeper
Raised it up a bit to maintain 90 f warm side .
After 2 weeks under the Mega ray i now have a very energetic ,eating machne pair of tortoise .
They are on a diet of mustard ,collard,turnip greens,with occasinal squash & carrots in the mix ,
I give them a treat of fruits apples ,cantalope, melon once a week .
Throw in some low fat cat food every 7 or 8 days ,
Now question is could it be the improvement is due to having UVB lighting? or is it just because they are becoming comfortable in their new home .
i would like to beleive that it is the UVB that they are receiving.but as i said earlier i am no expert on tortoises but learning to appreciate these little guys more & more each day .
Thanks to all the people here for guidence on correct husbandry.
Mike D.
 

cdmay

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Wow Madkins007, that is well researched, factual and well said too. It is a good idea to clarify certain ideas that are commonly held about the species we keep. In the case of red-foots many folks assume that tropical South America is one giant rainforest jungle.
I reminds me of the mental concept people often have about desert tortoises or tortoise species that are spoken of as living 'in a desert environment', and what that really means.
For many people this conjures up a mental picture of a tortoise walking across a barren sand dune like Lawrence of Arabia.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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81shovelhead...UVB does not go thru small screen. So depending on how small or large your screen is, your guys may not be getting any UVB...I'd get rid of the screen...
sorry to hijack your thread mark...
 

Redfoot NERD

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Does maintaining [ like a few of us have ] redfoot tortoises for at least the first 'phase' of their life count for anything? - that would be the first 10+ years from hatchling to a mature adult demonstrating the ability to produce off-spring.

Would that experience indicate where they prefer to abide 'most' of the time?

A few of us ( Carl in particular ) know those that have maintained a multitude of redfoot tortoises for decades - but it's virtually impossible to get them to talk......... they being a much better source than someone who has spent a much shorter time [ in comparison ] traveling around in South America observing smaller areas and numbers.... and then writing about them.

Few these days [ with any experience ] refer to redfoots being "forest" tortoises anymore. I believe most realize they do live on the edges.. and prefer more shade and higher humidity.

This being an "environmental" thread I'll not address the degree of "omnivorousness" [ is that a word? ] they practice given the chance!

16_5_42.gif


Terry K
 

Candy

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I'm loving this information that you're providing for us Mark. I only wish I read as much as you must. :D I would love to see some pictures if you have any of their "Tropical" environment. As for the meat thingy, Dale eats (as you know) elk meat and I'm sure it's not the same as they would find in the wild. If I give it to him too often the funny thing is he won't eat it, although the babies will, funny huh? As for the light, he will definitely bask in the sun outside for a while and then he will hide under his favorite palm tree. The babies pretty much hide all of the time. :)

DSC00647.jpg
 

terryo

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What about the Brazilian Cherry Head? Where in Brazil would they come from? I notice some posts in the classified's saying "pure Brazilian Cherry Heads". What does this mean, and do they mean that they come from the Brazilian Rain Forest?
 

cdmay

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terryo said:
What about the Brazilian Cherry Head? Where in Brazil would they come from? I notice some posts in the classified's saying "pure Brazilian Cherry Heads". What does this mean, and do they mean that they come from the Brazilian Rain Forest?

Terryo, The cherryhead form of red-foots are reportedly from the Brazilian state of Bahia where the climate is hot and much drier than the rainforest areas. The vegetation is much more sparse as well. The town of Lencois is a known locality for cherry-heads and it is not in the rainforest.
Another known locality for them is Baixa Grande, Brazil and like Lencois it too is regarded as semi-arid with very hot and dry seasons. Certainly not rainforest.
 

Kristina

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The simple answer is that they tend to pyramid if you don't. One of those things where you still have to draw your own conclusions.
 

cdmay

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terryo said:
So why do we have to "spray them til they drip", and keep them so humid?

Well, you don't actually have to spray them that much to achieve a good humidity level, but I get your question. You must understand that even in locations that experience dry seasons a small animal like a juvenile tortoise (or even an adult) is going to seek out as humid a microhabitat as they can find. All terrestrial turtles and tortoises are experts at disappearing into dead vegatation, leaf piles, tufts of grass and so on. They will also exploit any other form of ground cover that will shelter them through difficult times. In addition, any burrow made by mammals small and large are attractive to tortoises as hiding places as they too retain moisture levels far above the exposed places around them.
In harsh regions where red-foots tortoises live, like the Gran Chaco of Paraguay, the animals simply disappear and remain inactive during the dry season or during cold weather only to reappear when conditions are more to their liking.
 

Madkins007

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TerryO- for the love of all that is shelled, don't go there in this thread! :)

Seriously, there are several aspects to that.

1. Even in the drier climates in their range, the actual places they are tend to be green. The Vinke's, in their discussions of the Red-foots in the non-rain forest, and non-rain forest edge habitat of the Gran Chaco (Paraguay and Bolivia) mention that even in the mostly dry reaches, Red-foots can be found in the lower green valleys and riverside areas while the Chaco Tortoise is found in the higher, drier areas.

2. They prefer a decent humidity overall. For some of us, that means things like misting or other aggressive humidity interventions. Some of us (like you danged Hawaiians and southern Floridians) are lucky enough that this is not a key issue.

3. Humidity is just one part of smooth shell growth. Good bone growth is the key, and proper hydration/humidity is just one part of the formula.


(Hi, Carl, who was apparently posting when I was!)
 

Candy

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Wow for a minute I thought it was going to go into another pyramiding thread. :(

I was wondering though if anyone knows if the flooding that Brazil had recently was in any of the places that you guys were speaking about? I'm hoping not as it was very bad. :(
 

terryo

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TerryO- for the love of all that is shelled, don't go there in this thread!

I really laughed out loud reading that Mark.:D:D:D

Mark, I never mentioned pyramiding, and I wasn't even thinking about that. :rolleyes: Actually I was thinking about location, like your first post mentioned.
So actually there are no RF's ..Cherry or whatever that come from the hot, wet, very humid rainforest, with very little sun filtered through the trees.
 

Madkins007

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It is hard to find records of large numbers of Red-foots in the same locations as Yellow-foots. There are some places, like the island of Maraca (where Deb Moscovitz did her famous dissertation), where you can find both, but that is considered a bit of an anomaly by a lot of field researchers.

Of course, the full-blown rain forest is not solid green, hot, and wet either. Like a New York forest in the summer, there are millions of microhabitats, openings, and so on where it can be cooler, drier, wetter, etc. And, a lot of the non-rain forest regions in South America are still hot and wet, they just experience more variation than the relatively stable Amazon Basin.

The Bahia is 564,692.7 square kilometers. New York is 128,403- only about 1/4th of the size, and look at all of the major and minor climatic zones just in New York. (The Amazon Basin is a whopping 8,235,430 K2!)

As an Omahan, I firmly and unconsciously 'know' that all of New York is a giant city from edge to edge- making the same error we make when we think of the Amazon Basin or the Bahia as being all one thing.

(I'm tired and I think I wandered from the point here, but think I will just end it now before I dig in any deeper!)
 

Angi

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I was not expecting this thread to be so interested. Great thread. I amn amazed at how smart/knowledgable some of you are.
 

cdmay

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terryo said:
TerryO- for the love of all that is shelled, don't go there in this thread!
So actually there are no RF's ..Cherry or whatever that come from the hot, wet, very humid rainforest, with very little sun filtered through the trees.

Like Madkins007 said, there ARE some populations of red-foots that do live in fairly dense rainforest. But even then, those tortoises have been mostly found in clearings or sun/shade mosaic habitat.
 

Balboa

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I haven't done near the level of research that either Mark or Carl have, but I have gotten the distinct impression that even when living in the "savannah" type biomes, redfoots prefer what's called gallery forests. If you have ever driven through arid parts of the midwest you've probably seen them before. These are the narrow forests that grow along river banks, but get more than a stones throw from the river and it goes to grassland.

It makes me think the term "near-forest" is perfect for redfoots. Its like they ideally want to be at most a days walk from either forest or field at any given time.
 
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