Tom's Geochelone pardalis pardalis

[Kristina]

http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Geochelone-pardalis-pardalis

The baby in the bottom left is GORGEOUS... Man, I have Leopard fever all over again!

 

[dmmj]

so question is pardalis pardalis characteristics the 2 spots on the top of the shell? I went to my local reptile store they had some ugly and sick looking leopard nothing like tom's, they looked like someone had erased the marking on the top of the shell.

 

[Yvonne G]

The two spots are supposed to be an indication, however, if you had a hatchling babcocki and a same age pardalis right next to each other, there are other differences too.

 

[Kristina]

There are two types of Leopards, Geochelone pardalis pardalis and G.p.babcocki. The babcocki don't have the dots in the center of the vertebral scutes. (I think.)

Guess I should leave this question to someone else, lol!

 

[Tom]

so question is pardalis pardalis characteristics the 2 spots on the top of the shell? I went to my local reptile store they had some ugly and sick looking leopard nothing like tom's, they looked like someone had erased the marking on the top of the shell.

Those were almost certainly babcocks, almost all of them are. It would be a very rare reptile shop that was selling true Gpp. Add to that almost everyone keeps them dry, on a dry substrate, with no water. Its a wonder they survive long enough in the pet shop to even get to a home. Sadly, most of the claimed Gpp out there are actually hybrid. People have been mixing them for decades. Some unscrupulous breeders/sellers clam that they are real, pure Gpp even when they really have no way of knowing.

You can see the differences between the two listed in my thread in the "For Sale" section. Post #1.
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Geochelone-pardalis-pardalis

Thanks for the compliment Kristina. The only thing I like better than their looks is their personality... wait, I like they they are really hardy too... and they have great appetite... and...

 

[egyptiandan]

S.p.babcocki have either one dot or no dot in each vertebral scute. S.p.pardalis has 2 dots on each (though not always on the 5th) vertebral scute.
S.p.babcocki tend to be higher domed as hatchlings where S.p.pardalis tend to be not as domed and more elongated.
Like Yvonne has said S.p.pardalis tend to have little black specks all over their skin, giving them a slightly mottled appearance. S.p.babcocki tend not to have many if any black specks.

Danny

 

[PeanutbuttER]

I really like the top left one actually. Love the symmetry

 

[cdmay]

G. p.pardalis does in fact USUALLY have the twin spots on the vertebral scutes and although it is hard to explain, pardalis hatchlings have a 'crisper' and cleaner look to them.
My friend **** Bartlett breeds pardalis pardalis and his adults are awesome animals that are full of outgoing personality--especially his two males. They are completely different than my old breeding group of babcocki. Although I hatched hundreds of eggs from them they were as devoid of interesting behavior as could be. Even our two big female babcocki, that we raised from little four inch juveniles, always remained very shy and retiring. The two males were a little more outgoing but they were never what I would call responsive. I have heard from other keepers who have maintained both sub-species and they also comment on how different in behavior they are from each other.
BTW, I agree with kyryah in that the bottom left hatchling is the one I would pick too.
Along with the bottom right one.

 

[Tom]

Thanks for the insight Carl. Everything you've just said is exactly the same thing I've heard from people who have kept this subspecies and my new ones are no exception, even though they are just hatchlings.

And BTW, you can both have the hatchlings of your choice a they are both for sale... and getting cheaper the longer I have to take care of them.

 

[Kristina]

I wish Tom, I wish. Unfortunately I am still making payments to two very patient forum members for two very adorable tortoises. If the funds were available, I would definitely have that baby Leo, lol.

 

[dmmj]

well I plan on getting a leo sooner or later I was just curious, if tom has any left when I do decide to buy I will most likely buy from him or cory if cory's are PP.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

From mid' 2004 - 'babcocki' -

I didn't no anything about "pyramiding" -

Look at the "snow"! -

The good ole daze!

NERD

 

[Jacqui]

I think the two on the left are the choice ones myself.

 

[Seiryu]

So by what I know, babcocki never have 2 dots.

Which would make the tortoise with 2 dots in Terry's first picture a hybrid then? (Far Left of first pic).

I like the lighter one on the right myself in Tom's pics.

 

[Tom]

So by what I know, babcocki never have 2 dots.

Which would make the tortoise with 2 dots in Terry's first picture a hybrid then? (Far Left of first pic).

I like the lighter one on the right myself in Tom's pics.

Its not absolute. You will occasionally see a babcock hatchling with two dots in a scute. Don't forget there has been a ton of hybridizing too. This might explain why you see a hatchling out of "babcock" parents that shows some pp traits. There are several distinguishing factors that help distinguish the two torts. The scute spots is just one of them. Personally, I think there is enough difference between the two to make them two different species. That opinion, however is highly debatable. Just because they can interbreed does not make them the same species. Lions and tigers can breed and make hybrid babies. For that matter sulcatas and babcocks can breed and produce viable offspring... I've seen them...unfortunately.

Anyway these ones are all totally pure from someone who actually imported them 20 years ago directly from South Africa. I've seen the parents and they ain't no babcocks. They don't even act like babcocks...

 

[cdmay]

I'm not sure about them being different species but there are enough differences to warrant sub-specific names.
Plus, there may some geographic seperation too--although I don't know for sure.
One other thing that is certainly different though is this: the eggs from South African pardalis seem to require a period of diapause while babcocki hatch with no special treatment at all.

 

[kelarned]

These are my 2 little guys. I believe they are hybrid from what the original owner told me. I was told their dad was G.p. pardalis. Any thoughts?

They are 6 weeks old. I have been keeping them hydrated for the last 2 weeks. Do their scutes look normal or do I already have pyramiding going on. I know I can't reverse it, but will it continue to get worse, or even out if I continue to keep them hydrated?

 

[Az tortoise compound]

kelarned,
They look fantastic. they look like typical Babcocki, except for the "skirting" around the edges. That part looks more Gpp than I am used to seeing. Maybe iam wrong.

 

[Tom]

I'm not sure about them being different species but there are enough differences to warrant sub-specific names.
Plus, there may some geographic seperation too--although I don't know for sure.
One other thing that is certainly different though is this: the eggs from South African pardalis seem to require a period of diapause while babcocki hatch with no special treatment at all.

Carl, someday you are going to give me a reason to argue with you. Yet again, today is not that day.

You are a wealth of knowledge and I wish you posted more often.

 

[Neal]

These are my 2 little guys. I believe they are hybrid from what the original owner told me. I was told their dad was G.p. pardalis. Any thoughts?

They are 6 weeks old. I have been keeping them hydrated for the last 2 weeks. Do their scutes look normal or do I already have pyramiding going on. I know I can't reverse it, but will it continue to get worse, or even out if I continue to keep them hydrated?

There's a lot of speckling on the heads, but I see that on a lot of babcocki's. It's really hard to tell in some cases though unless you know 100% where the parents came from.

Hard to tell from the angle, but the scutes look slightly raised. Just keep them hydrated, humid, and warm. If you do this the new growth should be more even and flat.