tnt or minerall or both?

[marcy4hope]

i am adding a mineral supplement to my tort's diet. out of convenience i grabbed some fluker's liquid vitamin supplement but have not been satisfied with it.

so i ordered some minerall and tnt with probiotics. but, should tnt and minerall both be used, or should i use one or the other?

 

[ascott]

Just giving you a bump back to the front....maybe someone that uses either/both will give you a bit of their insight

 

[RedfootsRule]

It depends; what is the diet your feeding? If you could make a list, it could be easier to tell you.

Honestly, if you have the correct diet, mineral/calcium supplements are never needed, and can sometimes do more harm then good. The only reason for calcium is to treat MBD, (or sometimes keepers use it for heavily egg-laying females, but thats a special case). The only reason either supplement is needed is if your diet is incorrect...In which case, you need to be fixing the problem, not treating the symptoms.

Do some research on the foods you feed, and find out the mineral/calcium content of the foods. If your feeding the correct ones, you will quickly realize there is no need....

 

[DeanS]

I've heard nothing but good about TNT...but I also know there are cheaper versions...pricewise, not quality-wise! The only supplement I use is calcium...and that's in the form of cuttlebone!

 

[RedfootsRule]

I've heard nothing but good about TNT...but I also know there are cheaper versions...pricewise, not quality-wise! The only supplement I use is calcium...and that's in the form of cuttlebone!

Cuttlebone is good I suppose as calcium, because the animal only uses it by its own choice, and usually only when they feel its needed (although not always the case). Mounding dusted calcium on their food and forcing them to eat it is whats dangerous.

 

[DeanS]

I've heard nothing but good about TNT...but I also know there are cheaper versions...pricewise, not quality-wise! The only supplement I use is calcium...and that's in the form of cuttlebone!

Cuttlebone is good I suppose as calcium, because the animal only uses it by its own choice, and usually only when they feel its needed (although not always the case). Mounding dusted calcium on their food and forcing them to eat it is whats dangerous.

I should've clarified a little...I grind it up into powder and add it to their food. And only once a week. If they eat mulberry leaves or cactus (or both), they're getting ALL the calcium they need!

 

[RedfootsRule]

I've heard nothing but good about TNT...but I also know there are cheaper versions...pricewise, not quality-wise! The only supplement I use is calcium...and that's in the form of cuttlebone!

Cuttlebone is good I suppose as calcium, because the animal only uses it by its own choice, and usually only when they feel its needed (although not always the case). Mounding dusted calcium on their food and forcing them to eat it is whats dangerous.

I should've clarified a little...I grind it up into powder and add it to their food. And only once a week. If they eat mulberry leaves or cactus (or both), they're getting ALL the calcium they need!

Yes, I guess it depends on what you feed. If collard greens is in their diet? 14.2:1 ca...I say forget about calcium in that scenario, and it would probably do more harm then good. However, this is based off of research, research and research. I've never tried it. I've raised and bred red foot's for years and never used calcium...Not a problem. With sulcatas, I guess it could be different? What is the ca of the grasses they graze on? Never seen it, but now I want to....

---

Gah! I hate it when it does this to my ca ratio.... CALCIUMHOSPHOROUS!

 

[Tom]

It depends; what is the diet your feeding? If you could make a list, it could be easier to tell you.

Honestly, if you have the correct diet, mineral/calcium supplements are never needed, and can sometimes do more harm then good. The only reason for calcium is to treat MBD, (or sometimes keepers use it for heavily egg-laying females, but thats a special case). The only reason either supplement is needed is if your diet is incorrect...In which case, you need to be fixing the problem, not treating the symptoms.

Do some research on the foods you feed, and find out the mineral/calcium content of the foods. If your feeding the correct ones, you will quickly realize there is no need....

I disagree with all of this.

Unless you have a lab with a spectral analyzer, and test every meal every day, there is no way to know what they are getting. The calcium and mineral content of various leafy greens will vary with the seasons, soil composition, and many other factors. This is especially true of the "average" keeper, feeding the "average" diet of spring mix and various grocery store greens for the winter. Adding a small amount of a mineral or calcium supplement is a good way to insure they are getting all that they need. I agree with you that piles of the stuff everyday is not good, but small amounts once or twice a week is cheap insurance. Plus TNT is made with some pretty harmless natural ingredients if memory serves... The result of not providing enough minerals or calcium, or the proper balance of minerals, is often a tortoise that starts eating things like pebbles, sand, rocks or substrate. Seen it many times and the application of a pinch of MinerAll a couple of times a week has stopped it every time.

Further, I have had a conversation with more than one keeper about the "giant" species. Sulcatas for example, can grow from 35 to 35,000 grams in just a few years. That is a lot of calcium and minerals to assimilate.

I am all for trying to offer the best diet possible. I think anyone who knows me and my routine will vouch for that. Cactus, mulberry leaves, collards, hibiscus leaves and a whole host of grasses and weeds are all great things to feed, but a little supplementation doesn't hurt anything, and very likely will help prevent any imbalances that may otherwise occur.

 

[RedfootsRule]

It depends; what is the diet your feeding? If you could make a list, it could be easier to tell you.

Honestly, if you have the correct diet, mineral/calcium supplements are never needed, and can sometimes do more harm then good. The only reason for calcium is to treat MBD, (or sometimes keepers use it for heavily egg-laying females, but thats a special case). The only reason either supplement is needed is if your diet is incorrect...In which case, you need to be fixing the problem, not treating the symptoms.

Do some research on the foods you feed, and find out the mineral/calcium content of the foods. If your feeding the correct ones, you will quickly realize there is no need....

I disagree with all of this.

Unless you have a lab with a spectral analyzer, and test every meal every day, there is no way to know what they are getting. The calcium and mineral content of various leafy greens will vary with the seasons, soil composition, and many other factors. This is especially true of the "average" keeper, feeding the "average" diet of spring mix and various grocery store greens for the winter. Adding a small amount of a mineral or calcium supplement is a good way to insure they are getting all that they need. I agree with you that piles of the stuff everyday is not good, but small amounts once or twice a week is cheap insurance. Plus TNT is made with some pretty harmless natural ingredients if memory serves... The result of not providing enough minerals or calcium, or the proper balance of minerals, is often a tortoise that starts eating things like pebbles, sand, rocks or substrate. Seen it many times and the application of a pinch of MinerAll a couple of times a week has stopped it every time.

Further, I have had a conversation with more than one keeper about the "giant" species. Sulcatas for example, can grow from 35 to 35,000 grams in just a few years. That is a lot of calcium and minerals to assimilate.

I am all for trying to offer the best diet possible. I think anyone who knows me and my routine will vouch for that. Cactus, mulberry leaves, collards, hibiscus leaves and a whole host of grasses and weeds are all great things to feed, but a little supplementation doesn't hurt anything, and very likely will help prevent any imbalances that may otherwise occur.

A spectral analyzer would be exactly how they determine it to begin with. Yes, the levels will vary based on a lot of factors, and even the stage of decomposition of the food your feeding, but not as vastly as people seem to assume.

All of this is why I said "if you are feeding the right diet". A correct diet will have all thats needed in it for the tortoise to live and go about daily metabolic functions. IF you are NOT providing the proper nutrition (a.k.a improper diet), then yes, they will eat rocks. Sulcatas, the best diet is obviously a range of natural grasses to graze on...If you find similar grasses (or the same) as they eat in the wild, which I know many keepers do, then they are getting exactly what they need in the wild...No calcium supplement in the wild. (Maybe they eat some limestone rock? Which is our equivalent of cuttlebone.)

The result of not providing any of the right things will lead to something bad. The amount is obviously what matters. A pinch of calcium? Might not do any harm, added once a week. Added once a day? Definitely will (if your providing the correct diet).

It also depends on the ingredients I suppose. Pure calcium carbonate? To much will undeniably lead to harm. If the ingredients are made out of completely natural things that, if unneeded by the reptile will not be digested and passed out in feces, there is obviously no harm.

 

[Tom]

That's the problem. No one can say for sure what the "right" diet is. Its all opinion. I have had rock eaters that I raised myself that were always fed the "right" diet from the time I got them as hatchlings. There is no way to simulate the 1000s of varieties of plants and millions of other factors that occur in the wild, in our captive situations. You can feed the "right" diet straight out of any website or book, and still develop minor imbalances or deficiencies in trace elements or minerals. Salt water aquariums taught me this more than anything else.

I still maintain that small amounts of supplementation hurt nothing and in some cases help to prevent deficiencies. Are you really going to argue this? Are you recommending that everyone reading this NOT supplement their tortoises ever, and instead attempt to feed what you consider the "right" diet? Come on Peter. What are we doing this for?

 

[RedfootsRule]

That's the problem. No one can say for sure what the "right" diet is. Its all opinion. I have had rock eaters that I raised myself that were always fed the "right" diet from the time I got them as hatchlings. There is no way to simulate the 1000s of varieties of plants and millions of other factors that occur in the wild, in our captive situations. You can feed the "right" diet straight out of any website or book, and still develop minor imbalances or deficiencies in trace elements or minerals. Salt water aquariums taught me this more than anything else.

I still maintain that small amounts of supplementation hurt nothing and in some cases help to prevent deficiencies. Are you really going to argue this? Are you recommending that everyone reading this NOT supplement their tortoises ever, and instead attempt to feed what you consider the "right" diet? Come on Peter. What are we doing this for?

I never once argued that no one ever supplement their tortoise ever. I said if they are feeding a correct diet (correct meaning what we already know is nutritionally sufficient) then there should be no need to supplement. If you use something, as I already said with completely natural ingredients that will be passed through the reptile, then appropriate amounts are acceptable.

 

[Tom]

It also depends on the ingredients I suppose. Pure calcium carbonate? To much will undeniably lead to harm. If the ingredients are made out of completely natural things that, if unneeded by the reptile will not be digested and passed out in feces, there is obviously no harm.

This is also not correct. Too much of just about anything can lead to imbalances and difficulty in absorbing other things. For example: Excess calcium will be passed in the urine or excreta, but it will still interfere with the absorption of zinc and certain fatty acids that are needed.

Our arguing is silly here. We both agree that every attempt should be made to feed a good, natural diet. My years of experience have taught me that the best tortoise keepers on earth sometimes fall short of this goal. Supplementation, in the correct quantities and frequencies, is simply away of fixing any imbalances or shortages, with no harm done if they are not needed.

 

[dmarcus]

I have used TNT with great success on a very ill sulcata... I also use it every now and then on all my torts food just because I want to supplement there diet...

 

[RedfootsRule]

It also depends on the ingredients I suppose. Pure calcium carbonate? To much will undeniably lead to harm. If the ingredients are made out of completely natural things that, if unneeded by the reptile will not be digested and passed out in feces, there is obviously no harm.

This is also not correct. Too much of just about anything can lead to imbalances and difficulty in absorbing other things. For example: Excess calcium will be passed in the urine or excreta, but it will still interfere with the absorption of zinc and certain fatty acids that are needed.

Our arguing is silly here. We both agree that every attempt should be made to feed a good, natural diet. My years of experience have taught me that the best tortoise keepers on earth sometimes fall short of this goal. Supplementation, in the correct quantities and frequencies, is simply away of fixing any imbalances or shortages, with no harm done if they are not needed.

I can point out about 10 reasons why to much calcium (and other minerals) is a bad thing, being that you just stated its incorrect, but I won't. Because I agree, its ridiculous to carry this on, which is why I don't understand your reason in doing so....

 

[DeanS]

I can point out about 10 reasons why to much calcium (and other minerals) is a bad thing, being that you just stated its incorrect, but I won't. Because I agree, its ridiculous to carry this on, which is why I don't understand your reason in doing so....

Perhaps you should sit at the kiddie table and observe for awhile as the grown-ups educate you a little more...

 

[RedfootsRule]

I can point out about 10 reasons why to much calcium (and other minerals) is a bad thing, being that you just stated its incorrect, but I won't. Because I agree, its ridiculous to carry this on, which is why I don't understand your reason in doing so....

Perhaps you should sit at the kiddie table and observe for awhile as the grown-ups educate you a little more...

Educate me in what? All of my points are valid and I believe you know it very well. I said it already; what point is there to carry on? I'm tired of this immaturity displayed by other members when they decide to stray completely off topic, when its already been stated it is pointless to carry on, for a hit below the belt. Please Dean. You and Tom were two members I previously had great respect for, and I'm beginning to lose it.

 

[marcy4hope]

lol ... well, since someone asked about diet .... i am feeding -

collard greens (off and on through the week)
spring mix (a little every day)
cactus (probably 3 times a week)
mazuri (twice a week)
kale (a few times a week when i have it)
bok choy (just added last week and they aren't thrilled with it yet)
mustard greens and turnip greens (i just added this week and they hate so far)

i have been using calcium supplement with d3 twice a week - just a pinch.

i used to use cuttlebone, but just forget to put it in their cage most of the time. and i have a sulcata that has 4 small bladder stones, so i wasn't sure i should keep cuttlebone in there all the time with him since i don't want him getting too much calcium. (not sure if that will affect the bladder stones or not, but thought it could possibly do more harm than good if i don't limit him by just using the calcium d3 twice a week).

i also add fluker's vitamin supplement once a week, but when i do that, both of my torts usually don't eat nearly as much. i added the vitamin supplement on the recommendation of the veterinarian that we saw for the bladder stones. it was either this or he was going to give him an injection, which i said no to.

here's the reason i wanted to add a mineral type supplement - probably completely substituting tnt or minerall in place of the fluker's vitamin.

i have had instances where both of my torts have eaten sticks or their substrate. my sulcata was eating sticks which was the very first sign i saw that something was not right with him a couple of months ago. since then, he's moved completely indoors for the winter and so there is no chance of him eating sticks. but, i wondered if the minerall might help if there is any sort of deficiency there.

my leopard recently was trying to eat his substrate. i had just put a big flat rock in his cage right under his heat lamp, thinking it'd make a nice place for him to bask. his "claws" were overgrowing some and i thought it'd be good to use the rock to trim them down a bit. as soon as i put the rock in, he started trying to eat it (even though he couldn't), but he'd also try to eat the substrate around it. he refused his food completely. i removed the rock and he quit eating substrate and started eating his food again.

the reason i was looking at the tnt with probiotics is because i thought it might help my sulcata who is already trying to deal with bladder stones and it looked like it would also add some great fiber to his diet. he's tended to be a little constipated lately, so i thought the extra fiber would do him some good, as well as the probiotics. (i have also started putting some mineral oil on his greens to see if that will help him pass those small stones).

i don't want to be adding too many supplements and that's why i asked the question about whether i should use minerall OR tnt OR both. i could alternate every other week for each one.

 

[Tom]

Marcy what are you using for water? Tap, bottled, distilled?

 

[marcy4hope]

distilled water in the enclosure dish which he can also soak in and drink.

i do soak him in tap water for an hour every day at least once - which is well water here and fairly hard. i did start using vitashell because i noticed he was getting just a little hard water stain on his shell. once i started using vitashell, i haven't had anymore hard water stains at all. i rinse him with distilled water after he soaks.

 

[Tom]

Ahhhhh.... we may have discovered something here. Finally! I can't possibly know for sure if this is your problem but...

Two things about "distilled" water. I have read that the distillation process can leave behind certain heavy metals. I have not tested this, but it is not meant for consumption, so it seems plausible. This could be part or all of your issue. Maybe these metals caused or contributed to the formation of the stones?

Second thing: Distilled water is supposed to be absolutely pure, so no minerals, salts or dissolved solids of any kind. Tortoises need water with some minerals in it. It is part of a whole balancing act with vitamins, trace elements, minerals, fatty acids, etc... Possibly the LACK of minerals and dissolved solids in their drinking water is causing them to feel an imbalance. They are trying to correct this imbalance by eating all sort of stuff that they shouldn't. You are seeing this behavior in both tortoises, so it makes sense. I think you might have an imbalance going on. Cuttlebone alone only replaces calcium carbonate, but not all the other minerals that need to be in the correct balance with it.

I would just use tap water for everything, unless you suspect there is something wrong with your tap water.