[split] Wild caught or Captive bred?

Status
Not open for further replies.

RedfootsRule

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
938
Location (City and/or State)
Miami, Florida
Tom said:
Peter, I'm sorry that you have some sort of preconceived emotion attached to the word "anthropomorphism" that makes you angry, but that does not make you any less guilty of it. It also does not make it "idiocy", because in fact anthropomorphism leads to a lot of stupid decisions and causes harm to animals. Two examples: All the people who get a second russian tortoise because they think their tortoise needs a "friend". Example two: The youtube video of a leopard tortoise "helping" another tortoise who was flipped on its back, by flipping it back over. We actually argued this one here on the forum. It was obvious that these were two males fighting. The upright male had likely flipped the other one just before the video starts and he was showing every sign of male tortoise aggression in the book. He simply rammed his helpless upside down rival and it happened to turn him right side up. He then proceeded to attempt to chase his rival out of his territory. The "animal lover" crowd saw this as one tortoise helping another. Anthropomorphism. Any beginning student of tortoise behavior could see that it was one tortoise ATTACKING another. I will pre-grant you that a lack of anthropomorphism can also lead to bad decisions regarding animals. I've seen that too.

No one is arguing that animals don't have emotions. I'm a freakin' animal trainer by profession. You think I don't know more about animal's thoughts and emotions than your average Joe on the street? What I am arguing is your assertion that any tortoise would have the ability to reason the difference between "die free than live in a cage the rest of its life...", or the "fair"ness of being brought into captivity. Do animals have emotions? Yes. Do they have the ability to use logic and deductive reasoning to compare and contrast their current captive situation with their former wild situation and formulate a list of pros and cons? No. No they don't. Some people do not read enough into animal thoughts and behavior. YOU are reading TOO MUCH into it, in my opinion. Apes, elephants and dolphins can, to some degree, reason. Tortoises and other reptiles, not so much. Bugs? Nope. Parrots? Certainly. Alligators? No. Dogs? Sure. Etc... In short saying that it is sometimes a bad thing when humans incorrectly ascribe human emotions to animals is NOT the same thing as saying animals have no emotions. You made that leap for some reason, and that is part of why we are arguing. I'm not saying that animals don't have "feelings". They do. I'm saying that tortoises do not have the ability to use reason and logic as a human does, because they don't.

As for your attempt to absolve yourself and others from blame for tortoises being taken from the wild? I say, "supply and demand". With no demand (which is ultimately what you, me and other pet keepers offer), there would be no supply offered. Sure this vehicle has lots of parts, but you and I are what DRIVE this vehicle. This vehicle (the pet trade: all of it, CB and WC) would not exist without you and me and others like us who spend money on pets and pet supplies. Whether YOUR particular animals are CB or WC is irrelevant in my opinion. We ALL fuel the fire. We are ALL part of the same culture or demographic group. If you me and all the others did not like keeping tortoises in captivity and spend our money on it, none would ever be removed from the wild for the pet trade. But we do, so they are. BTW, I find it noteworthy that I have no WC animals. The two species that I currently keep have not ben WC or imported since the 90s. Yet I still feel the way I do about this issue. Again, I believe CB to be superior for many reasons, but I do not share your across the board condemnation of any animals being removed from the wild. Endangered species (truly endangered ones, NOT stupid politically listed ones, like radiateds) sure. They should be restricted, regulated and protected. But common, non-endangered ones like pancakes or russians, I have no problem with in controlled numbers. No species should be depleted from the wild ever, but I have no problem with a carefully observed and adjusted "harvest" of species that can handle it.

And to reaffirm, just conversation here, no hostility. Just making my points and taking in your rebuttals. I think discussions like this are very beneficial. Everyone learns from it. Everyone sees new thoughts and points of view. Everyone will see where different people stand on different issues. Some will agree with either side, and that's okay, but we all get to see and experience each others side, and THAT is what I find beneficial. I may not agree with all of your points, but I do like to hear them. This back and forth "arguing" or discussion, helps me (and others) better understand exactly where you are coming from and what, specifically, you mean by some of your statements. Its all good, in other words.

Tom,

From Yvonne's post:

Anthropomorphism isn't applying YOUR feelings to an animal, it means giving "feelings" to an animal. Animals don't have "feelings." They look for food...they satisfy their need to breed...they rest...they warm themselves in the sun...they protect themselves when they are threatened...but they don't "feel."

So please understand first, I was not addressing your view of anthropomorphism, but yvonne's, since every word of her post seemed to say animals have no emotion.

I'm sorry if I'm somehow misguided in believing that through this, the meaning was animals do not have emotion. Clearly, that is Yvonne's understanding of the word "anthropomorphism". I was addressing her view of it, not yours. I understand perfectly well that you don't believe reptiles have a sense of logic and reason, and thats your version of anthropomorphism...(We all seem to have a different idea of what that word means)....We will have to agree to disagree however, because I DO believe reptiles have a sense of reason.

Honestly, nobody can accuse another of being an "anthropomorphosist" because that would be a complete matter of opinion. Calling someone else an anthropomorphosist is saying they are applying human feelings to an animal; but that would be assuming animals do not have "human feelings" (e.g a tortoise has no sense of freedom). You accusing me of being an anthropomorphosist has no meaning, because it is your opinion that tortoises have no sense of freedom; it is not mine, and it is not shared by everyone here.

Tom, you keep saying tortoises have no sense of reason or freedom; from your post: "I'm saying that tortoises do not have the ability to use reason and logic as a human does, because they don't." Your leaving no room for opinion there, because you seem to be saying no matter what, tortoises don't have a sense of freedom or reason. How do EITHER of us know? No study has yet been done to prove it right or wrong. We are basing this completely off of our respective observations. Mine tells me they do, yours says they don't.

I will repeat, it is a complete matter of opinion to say people are ascribing human emotions to an animal, because that would be assuming animals do not have those emotions. As I said, many studies have been done on other species to prove they have emotion, but not yet has one been done on reptiles.

I don't know how it can be denied that tortoises don't know the difference between captivity and a wild life. Here is your difference: wild life = roaming free, wherever they want, no boundaries (okay, maybe a river). Captivity = a wall on all four sides and no way of getting past it. How would they NOT know the difference?

But honestly, lets pay no attention to how the animal might feel about being taken from the wild, because clearly it is a debate in itself that it would even care, and then its another debate that if it cares, whether the animals feelings have any matter to us. So lets drop all of the "anthropomorphism", "personification", and animal emotion crap. It really isn't beneficial to this debate one way or another.




Tom, I'm continually thinking in my mind....And I can in no way understand how you believe that anyone who owns a captive bred animal is the reason for WC animals...Lets take a look at this.

If I and everyone else on earth stop buying CB animals, what result will it have on WC animals? None. If anything, it will increase the demand. However, if we all stop buying WC animals, there will be no more reason for WC animals in the pet trade. There is no way to sneak past this or deny it. It is solid logic...

If everyone just stops buying WC animals, (except for the ones needed for possible "assurance colonies", which should only be purchased by those that plan on contributing them to breeding, not for pets) they won't capture them for the pet trade anymore. Thats about all that can be said about it.

We share the same opinion; that neither one of us would mind controlled capture on the species that can handle it. But there is no such thing as controlled capture. When it is offered, some follow it legally. This then increases the demand for the animals offered, fueling more illegal capture of the animals. There will never be restricted capture. Humans are to greedy.


Jacqui,

You seem to believe that "leaving the tortoise out in the wild" is leaving it to death. As I've already explained, its not. What would you do? Are you going to capture every tortoise in the world to have it live in your backyard instead of in the wild because "its safer there"? If your worried about the tortoise in the wild, you should start using no paper cups, paper plates, paper towels - anything made from paper. Start using the organic kind made from elephant poop. Because if you use these products, unfortunately, you are fueling the fire thats burning these tortoises in the wild (e.g deforestation. Your also fueling the other threat of being taken for the pet trade. Your the fuel for both of the fires that threaten them.)

I understand what you mean. I would love to see us fix the problem. The only way to fix it is to protect them in the wild. (Go to the url I posted for more info on why ex-situ conservation does not work)
Lets take a look at why captive breeding on most species won't work.

One problem with captive breeding is that it diverts attention from in situ conservation. Captive breeding can be used beneficially as a supplement; the problem is, it seems to be used as an alternative! What sense is there in treating the symptoms but not the cause? If we focus all of our efforts on ex situ conservation instead of in situ, what will happen? We seem to believe the captive breeding is the best because "one day we can reintroduce them to the wild." Have you ever thought about this; when we IGNORE in situ conservation and focus on ex situ as an alternative, what wild will be left? We seem to believe that we can reintroduce them in 10 years; if something isn't done to protect WILD HABITATS, there will be no wild to reintroduce them to. Thus, your years of captive breeding are now pointless.

Captive breeding and reintroduction also have the potential to decrease genetic variability within species, and transmit exogenous pathogens to wild populations. (You have to be EXTREMELY CAREFUL when releasing a tortoise of an already very endangered species into the wild). They are also done without any attention payed to the species minimum viable population size. No one has done any study on just how many animals would be needed for an eventual reintroduction (which, by the time that would happen, we must assume that all wild tortoises would be dead.)

To combat the decrease of genetic diversity, we would have to take every endangered tortoise that is in captivity and contribute it to captive breeding (and probably multiply it by 2 or 3, but lets forget that part). Then, that whole little kink of actually being successful at captive breeding (successful meaning continually reproducing large clutches, not just getting 1-2 hatchlings a year because we got lucky, as it seems to be with species such as impressa and erosa.) Then, reintroduction would have to be successful, (which is unlikely).

Think of what could happen if all the money that is wasted on ex situ conservation was contributed to in situ. Every time TSA spends 3 million dollars on their new facility in (insert country of the year here).

As I said; captive breeding can be an experimental supplement, it cannot be an alternative.

Taking tortoises from the wild to live in our backyards is harmful to them in every sense of the word (unless you have the pure intention of contributing them to captive breeding populations). I know we want to go with the starfish theory, that it mattered to that one tortoise. And it does. It's a sad story, what happens to that one tortoise. But the really sad story, is whats going to happen to that whole species.
 

TylerStewart

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
1,063
Location (City and/or State)
Las Vegas, NV.
Good grief, Peter, this has gotten so far out in left field I'm not even gonna try to catch up with it all (it'd take me 2 hours to fix all your oddball assumptions and accusations, and then you would just argue it all back), but you mentioned that forstens were difficult to find in the wild.... Can you tell me when the last time forstens were imported? You act like all species are imported with no regard for their wild populations which isn't true. The two imported most are redfoots and Russians, probably followed by Greeks, none of which are threatened "in real life" in the wild. There's few other species that are imported at all, really.

You also have this idea in your head that us as a group of tortoise lovers, half of which probably still living with mom and dad, can completely solve the problems of these tiny African countries clearing forests mostly to use the land to grow food (not to make paper plates). You think people haven't been trying to stop deforestation for decades? Can you name me a facility that TSA spent 3 million dollars to build in a foreign country? Can you name me a facility that TSA spent $500,000 on in a foreign country?
 

RedfootsRule

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
938
Location (City and/or State)
Miami, Florida
TylerStewart said:
Good grief, Peter, this has gotten so far out in left field I'm not even gonna try to catch up with it all (it'd take me 2 hours to fix all your oddball assumptions and accusations, and then you would just argue it all back), but you mentioned that forstens were difficult to find in the wild.... Can you tell me when the last time forstens were imported? You act like all species are imported with no regard for their wild populations which isn't true. The two imported most are redfoots and Russians, probably followed by Greeks, none of which are threatened "in real life" in the wild. There's few other species that are imported at all, really.

You also have this idea in your head that us as a group of tortoise lovers, half of which probably still living with mom and dad, can completely solve the problems of these tiny African countries clearing forests mostly to use the land to grow food (not to make paper plates). You think people haven't been trying to stop deforestation for decades? Can you name me a facility that TSA spent 3 million dollars to build in a foreign country? Can you name me a facility that TSA spent $500,000 on in a foreign country?

So far out in the left field...Okay. I'm definitely going to say you have bothered to read none of anyones posts....The last time forstens were imported? Honestly, I don't know Tyler. I don't. I do know they were however; are you going to tell me this had no effect on their wild populations?

MANY species were imported, with no regard whatsoever to their wild populations....But if you don't want to bother to "fix all of my oddball accusations and assumptions", I won't bother to do the same with yours. Yes, I would argue it all back. Hence, this is a "debate" thread.

Impressed tortoises are WC. Hingebacks are WC. Not nearly all species are being bred in captivity, and even fewer are being bred successfully. Yet we have most species in captivity; where do they come from? Answer: they are WC. Or did the stork drop them off....?

Red foots are now listed by the IUCN as vulnerable...That means nothing right? I suppose you seek to discredit them; I'm sure you know much more about red foots in the wild, correct? They have no danger "in the real world" (your world). Redfoots are vulnerable mainly because of the pet trade....Yes, there is a myriad of other threats, but that is the main one. That is why they are listed as vulnerable.

Look on TSA's website....Goal of $1.6m for their "Turtle survival center". I'm not saying thats right or wrong; I hope they succeed in all their goals, but frankly, I don't see it working. TSA does to much ex-situ and virtually no in situ. Unfortunately, this is because its run by extreme tortoise/turtle hobbyists and not politicians.....The info for what I said is right on their website, buddy. Please look for it before you accuse me of misinformation. :)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what you've said, it honestly sounds like you don't have a clue how to rebutt what I have said. It sounds to me like you don't know how to prove it wrong. I would very much like you to try, because I would appreciate your ACTUAL point of view, instead of your opinion that I'm just writing a bunch of gibberish.

Honestly Tyler, I don't know how to go about in situ conservation...I don't. I'm not a politician. What I'm arguing, is that taking WC tortoises is damaging to their plight as a species. No, I don't have a dream that all of us, or the half of us "living with mommy and daddy" can smooth over everything in these tiny african countries. If you believe that, you have completely misunderstood my posts.

And here we were trying to keep hostility out of this thread...:(
 

TylerStewart

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
1,063
Location (City and/or State)
Las Vegas, NV.
Nobody is getting hostile but you, the way I see it. You said that TSA spends 3 million on facilities in foreign countries.... You may not realize this, but you can build things in other countries for a tiny fraction of the cost of building one here, and if their main facility here is supposed to be 1.6 million, do you think they've spent 3 million on one (or multiple) overseas like you said? The TSA is smart enough to know that assurance colonies are needed in the US because so many of the natural habitats are a lost cause. You don't seem to grasp that. You can spend "X dollars" here setting up a facility and knowing you'll at least keep the species alive, or you can spend the same "X dollars" protecting native habitat which might protect that habitat for 3 or 4 months.

Forstens are virtually never imported, and by far their greatest threat is food markets in China. There's more eaten in a week in Asia than there has ever been imported into the US, so by my math, they'd be much better off being imported here where at least the effort it made to produce them.

Impressa are almost never imported at all besides a recent shipment and a PAIR that came in a year ago (mixed into an elongated shipment) that I ended up with, and were forwarded on to the Behler center for captive breeding. You think that pair was better left in the wild? Prior to that, I can't remember them coming in at all. They are also a food item tortoise, better off being imported to the US than left in Asia.

Hingebacks are imported in small numbers and aren't threatened in the wild. Just because redfoots were recently listed as something (which I'm sure you still are salivating about in excitement because it finally helps you make your point) doesn't mean they're threatened. My landscaper from South America was here a few weeks ago and saw my redfoots and started cussing in Spanish and said those were the "damn tortoises that were always eating his mom's garden down there that they used to smack and kill with a shovel as a pest." If you look at Google maps of South America, and then layer over it the redfoot's natural range, you'll see how much vast space has never been touched and won't be any time soon. Besides the fact, half or more of the imported redfoots are farm raised and not even wild caught.
 

RedfootsRule

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
938
Location (City and/or State)
Miami, Florida
http://www.tortoisereserve.org/research/Bred_Torts_Body2.htm/
Heres some good reading, with some actual real statistics...

TylerStewart: "Just because redfoots were recently listed as something (which I'm sure you still are salivating about in excitement because it finally helps you make your point) doesn't mean they're threatened."

Sounds hostile to me, does it not?

Do you have any proof to back up your outlandish claim that "more forstens are eaten in a week in Asia then have ever been imported into the US"? Yes, those eaten would be better off being sent here to be produced...If your intention is a serious attempt at breeding a rare and endangered species, starting out with a WC pair of tortoises, and you ACTUALLY HAVE the funding, knowledge, and facilities for it, I'll clap you on your back down the road.

Tyler, basically your point seems to be that no tortoises are imported...There was a thread here a few months ago about impressed tortoises....The OP got about 25 imports. Where'd he get them? Well, um, err....I thought they never came in anymore?

The "natural space" maps, or the "wild range" maps have next to no use....These maps are where they have been found, they do not in any way inhabit that entire range. They are completely misleading, if you actually give a second of thought to the matter.

As I said, you attempt to say that no tortoises are WC anymore through your post. Then why bother with this thread? This thread is about "Wild caught or Captive bred"? Which one should you buy? Doing so recognizes there are wild caught tortoises (which everyone who has been in the herpetology community for five seconds knows). If it is your goal to prove that untrue...Then I'm not sure what your point is here. You'd be telling us we're all wasting our time because we're debating about something that doesn't exist...
 

TylerStewart

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
1,063
Location (City and/or State)
Las Vegas, NV.
RedfootsRule said:
http://www.tortoisereserve.org/research/Bred_Torts_Body2.htm/
Heres some good reading, with some actual real statistics...

TylerStewart: "Just because redfoots were recently listed as something (which I'm sure you still are salivating about in excitement because it finally helps you make your point) doesn't mean they're threatened."

Sounds hostile to me, does it not?

I guess if you are a super sensitive person, then yes, that could be taken as hostile. They're not threatened, and they breed like rabbits.

RedfootsRule said:
Tyler, basically your point seems to be that no tortoises are imported...There was a thread here a few months ago about impressed tortoises....The OP got about 25 imports. Where'd he get them? Well, um, err....I thought they never came in anymore?

Ahem....

Impressa are almost never imported at all besides a recent shipment and a PAIR that came in a year ago (mixed into an elongated shipment) that I ended up with

RedfootsRule said:
The "natural space" maps, or the "wild range" maps have next to no use....These maps are where they have been found, they do not in any way inhabit that entire range. They are completely misleading, if you actually give a second of thought to the matter.

As I said, you attempt to say that no tortoises are WC anymore through your post. Then why bother with this thread? This thread is about "Wild caught or Captive bred"? Which one should you buy? Doing so recognizes there are wild caught tortoises (which everyone who has been in the herpetology community for five seconds knows). If it is your goal to prove that untrue...Then I'm not sure what your point is here. You'd be telling us we're all wasting our time because we're debating about something that doesn't exist...

When did I ever say that no tortoises are imported? I feel like all I've done in this thread it talk about which species are being imported. If the South American countries that redfoots are native to decide that they are dwindling in numbers, they'll cut off exports which is what generally happens with any species from any country. I understand that you're thriving on this thread, getting more attention from it than you've got since your last birthday, but you have yet to make a point that isn't a fictional creation, starting from the two leopard tortoises fighting that you witnessed as a friendly helping hand. Isn't it almost midnight in Florida? You're way too excited about this.
 

RedfootsRule

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
938
Location (City and/or State)
Miami, Florida
TylerStewart said:
RedfootsRule said:
http://www.tortoisereserve.org/research/Bred_Torts_Body2.htm/
Heres some good reading, with some actual real statistics...

TylerStewart: "Just because redfoots were recently listed as something (which I'm sure you still are salivating about in excitement because it finally helps you make your point) doesn't mean they're threatened."

Sounds hostile to me, does it not?

I guess if you are a super sensitive person, then yes, that could be taken as hostile. They're not threatened, and they breed like rabbits.

RedfootsRule said:
Tyler, basically your point seems to be that no tortoises are imported...There was a thread here a few months ago about impressed tortoises....The OP got about 25 imports. Where'd he get them? Well, um, err....I thought they never came in anymore?

Ahem....

Impressa are almost never imported at all besides a recent shipment and a PAIR that came in a year ago (mixed into an elongated shipment) that I ended up with

RedfootsRule said:
The "natural space" maps, or the "wild range" maps have next to no use....These maps are where they have been found, they do not in any way inhabit that entire range. They are completely misleading, if you actually give a second of thought to the matter.

As I said, you attempt to say that no tortoises are WC anymore through your post. Then why bother with this thread? This thread is about "Wild caught or Captive bred"? Which one should you buy? Doing so recognizes there are wild caught tortoises (which everyone who has been in the herpetology community for five seconds knows). If it is your goal to prove that untrue...Then I'm not sure what your point is here. You'd be telling us we're all wasting our time because we're debating about something that doesn't exist...

When did I ever say that no tortoises are imported? I feel like all I've done in this thread it talk about which species are being imported. If the South American countries that redfoots are native to decide that they are dwindling in numbers, they'll cut off exports which is what generally happens with any species from any country. I understand that you're thriving on this thread, getting more attention from it than you've got since your last birthday, but you have yet to make a point that isn't a fictional creation, starting from the two leopard tortoises fighting that you witnessed as a friendly helping hand. Isn't it almost midnight in Florida? You're way too excited about this.

-Sigh-....

I won't bother to quote all of your posts where you have stated exactly that.....

When in history has the country of origin of a species cut off export when they feel they are threatened? Usually, the situation is more that the country of origin couldn't care less (obviously it varies between countries).

Please, I ask this sincerely, learn to speak nicely to others before you contaminate this thread even FURTHER. "I understand that you're thriving on this thread, getting more attention from it than you've got since your last birthday, but you have yet to make a point that isn't a fictional creation, starting from the two leopard tortoises fighting that you witnessed as a friendly helping hand. Isn't it almost midnight in Florida? Your way too excited over this" Tyler, please, learn to present yourself in a MATURE manner....Thriving on this thread? Thats funny, I thought the situation was I was debating while the other party was made up of 2 moderators and 1 rather reputable member of this forum...If anything, I feel like I'm giving myself a bad reputation. But none of the REST OF US are being hostile. We're trying to have a civilized discussion, as Tom has stated about 12 times, and your jumping in accusing me of "fictional creations", then accusing me of saying things I didn't.

And I'm proven right! You didn't read any of the threads! I witnessed the two leopard tortoises fighting as a helping hand? That was Tom's post. I made absolutely no comment in regard to it. Please, learn to READ OUR POSTS before you accuse me of fictional creations!

Any of what you are saying about me has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DEBATE. This debate is Wild Caught or Captive Bred tortoises. Your personal attack on me for who knows what reason is completely uncalled for and unwelcome.

Please, the rest of us are attempting to have a beneficial debate. If you wish to contribute to it, start by reading others posts and responding to them in a kind manner. I would absolutely HATE to see this thread closed because your filling it with insults.
 

RedfootsRule

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
938
Location (City and/or State)
Miami, Florida
Cowboy_Ken said:
Are we just gonna ignore them commies eating them?

Er, what? Sorry cowboy, I'm from florida. Im told that "we da chiz" down here; I don't understand texas talk :cool:. What are commies and what are they eating?
 

Cowboy_Ken

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2011
Messages
17,539
Location (City and/or State)
Suburban-life in Salem, Oregon
Really, I could care less about people's political attraction. It just seems no one is bothering with the edible aspect of turtles and tortoises and instead focusing on the pet aspect which seems funner because our egos get stroked.


RedfootsRule said:
Er, what? Sorry cowboy, I'm from florida. Im told that "we da chiz" down here; I don't understand texas talk :cool:. What are commies and what are they eating?

Lol. I'm from Oregon. Unlike Texas, we believe chili has beans in it. Commies=Communists. China= largest communist country this side of…well, china. And they eat a lot of turtles and tortoise. If I could find my docs. on the Internet machine, I'd be happy to share the export numbers with you of critters from the USA to china.


For food. That we see as pets.


http://www.turtlesurvival.org/blog/...new-turtle-and-tortoise-facilities-in-myanmar

Maybe this will lead to I wine those dang burn ex-situ TSA facilities.
 

acrantophis

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2012
Messages
335
This thread is crazy, but awesome! Both sides have good points. Though, with terrestrial chelonians, I feel there is no sustainable harvest. Those animals occur in smaller numbers than say fish or shrimp. They don't reproduce in large numbers. They take a long time to reach sexual maturity. They have a high juvenile mortality rate. And so on.
Other species rely on those chelonians for their survival. Many species eat young reptiles. Some specialize in it. Why do we, as a species, feel it ok to harvest such a fragile species? I travel a lot to the tropics. Over the decades i have seen drastic declines in the abundance of so many familiar species. Try to find an amazon basin green tree boa in the amazon basin! i have, and im good at finding snakes. There are none. Why? Because, in 1998 a wild caught green tree was $4000.
I have hiked all over. My wife and i are amateur wildlife photographers. We scour neo tropical and Malaysian jungles and have never seen a terrestrial chelonian. I have covered a lot of ground in pFrance, Spain, Egypt, and have never seen a wild tortoise. I find snakes, lizards etc... Never a tortoise.
I was in the business a long time. In the 80's and 90's, I would buy imported herp and tropical fish in NYC/NJ airports as they came in and wholesale them to pet stores. Entire styro boxes would often contain just a bunch of dead "somethings". It could be just 500 guppies or maybe 15 giant tridacna clams or 10 Solomon island skinks. Either way it sucked. Captive breeding became popular around then and it was much more expensive. At first, many stores wouldn't pay $120 for a captive bred boa. Now, it would be difficult to find a wild caught boa. Back Then farm raising in Surinam and other countries became popular. Particularly iguanas and boas. Pseudo-wild caught. Why not with tortoises? Perhaps there is a compromise?
 

RedfootsRule

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
938
Location (City and/or State)
Miami, Florida
Cowboy_Ken said:
Really, I could care less about people's political attraction. It just seems no one is bothering with the edible aspect of turtles and tortoises and instead focusing on the pet aspect which seems funner because our egos get stroked.


RedfootsRule said:
Er, what? Sorry cowboy, I'm from florida. Im told that "we da chiz" down here; I don't understand texas talk :cool:. What are commies and what are they eating?

Lol. I'm from Oregon. Unlike Texas, we believe chili has beans in it. Commies=Communists. China= largest communist country this side of…well, china. And they eat a lot of turtles and tortoise. If I could find my docs. on the Internet machine, I'd be happy to share the export numbers with you of critters from the USA to china, for food.



I haven't given much thought to the "edible aspect" because I don't know much about it in China. I have never heard much of tortoises being eaten there. From what I've heard, I always assumed it was terrapins and soft shells. If you could find the export numbers, it would be nice to see.
Hold on, texas believes chili doesn't have beans in it? How else can you have chili........?



acrantophis said:
This thread is crazy, but awesome! Both sides have good points. Though, with terrestrial chelonians, I feel there is no sustainable harvest. Those animals occur in smaller numbers than say fish or shrimp. They don't reproduce in large numbers. They take a long time to reach sexual maturity. They have a high juvenile mortality rate. And so on.
Other species rely on those chelonians for their survival. Many species eat young reptiles. Some specialize in it. Why do we, as a species, feel it ok to harvest such a fragile species? I travel a lot to the tropics. Over the decades i have seen drastic declines in the abundance of so many familiar species. Try to find an amazon basin green tree boa in the amazon basin! i have, and im good at finding snakes. There are none. Why? Because, in 1998 a wild caught green tree was $4000.
I have hiked all over. My wife and i are amateur wildlife photographers. We scour neo tropical and Malaysian jungles and have never seen a terrestrial chelonian. I have covered a lot of ground in pFrance, Spain, Egypt, and have never seen a wild tortoise. I find snakes, lizards etc... Never a tortoise.
I was in the business a long time. In the 80's and 90's, I would buy imported herp and tropical fish in NYC/NJ airports as they came in and wholesale them to pet stores. Entire styro boxes would often contain just a bunch of dead "somethings". It could be just 500 guppies or maybe 15 giant tridacna clams or 10 Solomon island skinks. Either way it sucked. Captive breeding became popular around then and it was much more expensive. At first, many stores wouldn't pay $120 for a captive bred boa. Now, it would be difficult to find a wild caught boa. Back Then farm raising in Surinam and other countries became popular. Particularly iguanas and boas. Pseudo-wild caught. Why not with tortoises? Perhaps there is a compromise?

That is another good point. Tortoises are very fragile with reproduction...As you said, they have a very high mortality rate, and are on the menu from many species. They take a long time to reproduce. Those are even more good reasons we can't take them for the pet trade. They don't have the numbers or the reproduction rate to sustain it.


StudentoftheReptile said:
I think Peter just needs to stop keeping animals.

Student, if you have somehow, through reading the posts here (which I'm convinced you did not) gathered the idiotic conclusion that I feel it is somehow immoral to keep animals in captivity...So be it. I have explicitly stated many times I am not, but if thats the conclusion you come to, I couldn't care less. However, this is a debate on "Wild Caught or Captive bred?". Your opinion that I need to stop keeping animals is completely unwelcome. If you actually have something beneficial or thoughtful to contribute, please do so. I would love to see it. Your opinion I need to "stop keeping animals." is not welcome, however. This is meant to be a civilized argument (which apparently people have problems with). Your single sentence post is meant to do nothing more then to start an argument, and you know it is. It is unneeded and immature. Take it somewhere else.


I suppose, in the beginning, this thread turned to if it was moral to take wild caught animals to the pet trade. It has evolved to be about how to conserve the species (which I suppose I am slightly at fault for.) Maybe we need to get back on track.
Is it moral to keep Wild caught animals?

No, in my opinion. But, it is completely species specific. For example:

-Common species.
In every sense of the word, I think it is wrong to import wild caught specimens of species that are already mass-produced in captivity. Russians and red foots, just for an example. There is NO purpose to take them, and it will eventually lead to species endangerment. Personally, I say it should be banned as far as the pet trade is concerned.

-Rare or endangered species.
It completely depends on what your intentions are, I suppose. Do you want one as a pet? No, I believe that to be completely wrong. If you want a tortoise, keep a more common kind. You don't need to keep a rare tortoise and fuel the removal of them from the wild, just because you want one as a pet.
However, if you wish to breed them, I think it is worthwhile trying. The rarer species need to have successful breeding in captivity. But it should only be undertaken if you have the proper funds, knowledge, and facilities.


This whole thing is a very difficult discussion....I do not believe captive breeding will work well, and I do believe we need to do more in situ conservation. But at the same time, I feel like conservation of their wild habitats is a losing battle that we may never win...In which case, it is absolutely essential to have captive breeding, as it is obviously the only way. I've been stating reasons I don't believe captive breeding and reintroduction will be successful. But this is because of a lack of information. Has any study ever been done on, as I said, the target species' minimum viable population size? I've never heard mention of it. Genetic diversity? The threat of introduction an exogenous pathogen? I'm not a vet or biologist, so I couldn't give you that answer. Its just another thing to think of. The approach just seems to be to breed them and expect it to work...If ever I find the answer to these questions, it may sway my opinion on captive breeding. But I've never seen it, and never heard mention of it.

But in the end, my opinion is the same, regardless of captive breeding. They SHOULD NOT be taken from the wild for the "pet trade" (in other words, those who want them just cause they're cute and colorful). Thats pretty much all I have to say about it.
 

FLINTUS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
1,402
Location (City and/or State)
Watery Wiltshire in the UK
WOW! This had all settled down, no one had posted for a while and I brought it up to the top and BOOM! The war starts...
My thought line on this is exactly of RedFootaRule's, I believe they should be CB for common species but I think that for breeding projects it is OK for minor collection from the wild.
 

RedfootsRule

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
938
Location (City and/or State)
Miami, Florida
FLINTUS said:
WOW! This had all settled down, no one had posted for a while and I brought it up to the top and BOOM! The war starts...
My thought line on this is exactly of RedFootaRule's, I believe they should be CB for common species but I think that for breeding projects it is OK for minor collection from the wild.

I brought the conversation back to life, but others have felt the need to start a war, sadly....
 

Jacqui

Wanna be raiser of Lemon Drop tortoises
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
39,489
Location (City and/or State)
A Land Far Away...
I don't believe a war has started, but folks please let's not attack each other, rather debate each other's opinions.
 

jtrux

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
1,070
Location (City and/or State)
San Antonio, TX
RedfootsRule said:
Hold on, texas believes chili doesn't have beans in it? How else can you have chili........?


Chili can have beans in it, I just won't eat it. ;)
 

dmarcus

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2011
Messages
9,037
Location (City and/or State)
Las Vegas, NV
jtrux said:
RedfootsRule said:
Hold on, texas believes chili doesn't have beans in it? How else can you have chili........?


Chili can have beans in it, I just won't eat it. ;)

I won't eat it with beans either, however its so off topic..:p


I could care less if the tortoise or turtle is WC/CB, if I come across someone selling one, I won't hesitate to buy it, because I know I can provide it a good life, in a safe environment...
 

james1974

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
253
Location (City and/or State)
Illinois
Depending if you like a lot of vet bills?I have had both and wild ones are alot of vet bills especially in the Greek family..C.B. are the best way to go even if your going yo start a breeding group,it just takes some time to get there but worth it in the long run,plus you can see them grow up much more satisfying in my eyes.....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
TortoiseSupply.com

New Posts

Top