[split] Wild caught or Captive bred?

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RedfootsRule

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Jacqui said:
RedfootsRule said:
Jacqui, the "personal use" part of my post was about your point c and yagyujubei. When you say you prefer WC because they are "less expensive" I can draw no other conclusion from it...

Obviously, we need to take some WC of the species that have not yet been bred in captivity to get some assurance groups in place. But those that are being bred, we need to leave alone.

The price comment is one I also make because I think folks who really are concerned about taking more from the wild, should be pricing their captive hatchlings at the same price as a wild one. I am not going to get into, well they need to make a profit, I am just looking at if you make your captives the same price as a wild one, more would buy captive. Price is an object. I myself want the majority of my money going to better housing and feeding, not on purchase price.

If I can get a pair(m/f) of WC adult Bells hingebacks for $200 or spend $600 on a pair (two animals unsexed) of CB Bells, which one makes more sense to somebody trying to get breeding going? Not only would I know I have a pair, but they would be breeding sooner, but I have that $400 to spend on making a larger more nature enclosure for them. I would spend the next several years waiting for those captives to grow up and hope they are a pair (even then they would be less of a pair because no doubt they are siblings). I have been there done that, wasted several years and the space that could have been used for actual producing animals and then ended up with only males. Even folks with "noble" purpose do need to look at price and being upfront about it should not be used as a point against those folks. You may be a person of unlimited income, most of us have to count our pennies and make them stretch.

There is an issue there...Tell me when have you seen wild caught hatchlings? I certainly never have. And you will find that most breeders' hatchlings are cheaper then the wild caught juvenilles/adults. (Obviously species specific, I'm just speaking of some of them.)

Assuming by "folks with noble purposes" you mean those that are trying to breed the rarer species to have more of those species in the wild and relive pressure on wild-caught; those same folks should have the sense not to buy wild-caught in the beginning if it is their goal to eliminate it. (Assuming there are CB tortoises of the species they are attempting to breed).

I find it interesting that you assume I am a "person with unlimited income" just because I believe we should be prepared to spend extra money on CB and not buy the cheaper WC. Well, that is definitely my belief. I would sooner spend $1000 on a red foot then buy a $100 wild-caught tortoise, and I say that with full confidence. (And if I didn't have the $1000, then I believe I have no right to own the animal) I would never support WC on species such as this.

To often, money seems to come into play when owning animals. It is my opinion (and everyone can argue and spin this any way they want) that you SHOULDN'T GET THE ANIMAL if you don't have the money to spend! To often we see this as people get dogs, cats, tortoises, any animals, and then say "Well my tortoise has URTI buy I don't have the money to spend on a vet...". You should not get into owning animals in the first place if you don't have the funds.

However, thats straying off topic. We're talking about WC vs CB.
You know my beliefs, and I feel I understand yours. I don't think there is any more arguing to be had between us...
 

Jacqui

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RedfootsRule said:
There is an issue there...Tell me when have you seen wild caught hatchlings? I certainly never have. And you will find that most breeders' hatchlings are cheaper then the wild caught juvenilles/adults. (Obviously species specific, I'm just speaking of some of them.)

Assuming by "folks with noble purposes" you mean those that are trying to breed the rarer species to have more of those species in the wild and relive pressure on wild-caught; those same folks should have the sense not to buy wild-caught in the beginning if it is their goal to eliminate it. (Assuming there are CB tortoises of the species they are attempting to breed).

I find it interesting that you assume I am a "person with unlimited income" just because I believe we should be prepared to spend extra money on CB and not buy the cheaper WC. Well, that is definitely my belief. I would sooner spend $1000 on a red foot then buy a $100 wild-caught tortoise, and I say that with full confidence. (And if I didn't have the $1000, then I believe I have no right to own the animal) I would never support WC on species such as this.

To often, money seems to come into play when owning animals. It is my opinion (and everyone can argue and spin this any way they want) that you SHOULDN'T GET THE ANIMAL if you don't have the money to spend! To often we see this as people get dogs, cats, tortoises, any animals, and then say "Well my tortoise has URTI buy I don't have the money to spend on a vet...". You should not get into owning animals in the first place if you don't have the funds.

However, thats straying off topic. We're talking about WC vs CB.
You know my beliefs, and I feel I understand yours. I don't think there is any more arguing to be had between us...

I don't live where tortoises occur naturally, but I do see wild hatchlings of all the major turtles in this area, including ornate box turtles. I would look at Russians (one of the species you mentioned before I believe) that several times a year you can get a WC adult for $50-75, but I have yet to see a hatchling CB for that low of a price.

There is a difference between spending money to buy an animal and having the money to spend on the animal's care. One does not always exclude nor include the other.

Yes, we both understand each other and it seems I will have a nice colony of 10 breeding age redfoots, while you have your one hatchling. :cool: :D (of course my own in real life colony of redfoots are made up of adopted older CB teenagers for the most part, plus my own raised from hatchling CB animals :D ).
 

RedfootsRule

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[/quote]

I don't live where tortoises occur naturally, but I do see wild hatchlings of all the major turtles in this area, including ornate box turtles. I would look at Russians (one of the species you mentioned before I believe) that several times a year you can get a WC adult for $50-75, but I have yet to see a hatchling CB for that low of a price.

There is a difference between spending money to buy an animal and having the money to spend on the animal's care. One does not always exclude nor include the other.

Yes, we both understand each other and it seems I will have a nice colony of 10 breeding age redfoots, while you have your one hatchling. :cool: :D (of course my own in real life colony of redfoots are made up of adopted older CB teenagers for the most part, plus my own raised from hatchling CB animals :D ).
[/quote]

Turtles are a completely different stories then tortoises. Living in florida, I probably see almost a hundred of them a year. I never mentioned Russians.

Not really, but if thats your belief stick to it.

Thats interesting, because I already have a breeding colony of 6 breeding red foots, none of which are wild caught. And hold on, you just said all your red foots are CB so, er, what difference is there between me and you there? You've been arguing with me the whole time, justifying yourself getting WC animals, and now saying you have "your own raised from hatchling cb animals".

If your "breeding colony of 10 breeding age red foots" was wild acquired, then enjoy living in ignorance (or awareness) of the fact your contributing to their demise in the wild :).
 

Jacqui

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FLINTUS said:
Personally, with species such as Hermann's, Red Foots, Sulcatas, Leopards, Horsfields e.t.c, basically the common species, always buy CB.

RedfootsRule said:
Turtles are a completely different stories then tortoises. Living in florida, I probably see almost a hundred of them a year. I never mentioned Russians.

Your right, I miss remembered something that was said, as being said by you. It was Flintus who made the list.


RedfootsRule said:
Thats interesting, because I already have a breeding colony of 6 breeding red foots, none of which are wild caught. And hold on, you just said all your red foots are CB so, er, what difference is there between me and you there? You've been arguing with me the whole time, justifying yourself getting WC animals, and now saying you have "your own raised from hatchling cb animals".

If your "breeding colony of 10 breeding age red foots" was wild acquired, then enjoy living in ignorance (or awareness) of the fact your contributing to their demise in the wild :).

My colony of redfoots, leopards, sulcata, stars are CB and I think all the Cherryheads are too. However my Russians and hingebacks are WC. So while I have and will in the future raise CBs of different species, most of the animals I have and will buy in the future are WC. I believe there is a place for WC buying and good reasons to do so. Keep in mind, my main work with tortoises are hingebacks. The other species are just for fun, experience and knowledge.

To you it is "contributing to their demise" to me it is giving them a chance to have animals in the future that could allow for there to be once more wild animals once we have plans in place for that. I just wished before some of the extinct species we have today became extinct somebody had collected some and kept them from going extinct.


RedfootsRule said:
I would sooner spend $1000 on a red foot then buy a $100 wild-caught tortoise,

To make it clear, when I made the comment of you having one CB, while I would have 10 WC, this is what I was referring back to.
 

Jacqui

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:D My turtles would have made their escape at the first bar of the song. :D
 

ascott

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Jacqui, I have a redfoot tort here (Goliath) who does a similar dance when I rub his bum.....it is soooo funny, so when I watched this vid I laughed really hard and thought I would share the chuckle....
 

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emysemys said:
however if you want a tortoise and wc is all there is available, get it.

I think it is extremely irresponsible to suggest something like that and the fact that it comes from this forum mod makes it even more troubling. Wild caught tortoises should not be collected nor sold, period.
 

EricIvins

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Pond_Lilly said:
emysemys said:
however if you want a tortoise and wc is all there is available, get it.

I think it is extremely irresponsible to suggest something like that and the fact that it comes from this forum mod makes it even more troubling. Wild caught tortoises should not be collected nor sold, period.

But yet if those wild caught Cherryheads were not collected, you wouldn't have those animals you have listed in your signature. Period.
 

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Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions. We do not all march to the same drummer here. That is what makes our forum one of the best ones you can belong to. If you want to buy only captive bred animals, then that is what you should do. You have to appease your own conscience. Likewise, if one of our members wants to buy a wild caught animal, provided that animal was caught and sold legally, I believe that is what he should do. It is not up to me to try to change someone's belief system.
 

mattgrizzlybear

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I really don't like wild caught because they are taken out of the wild against there will. They lived in peace and what do we know? They could have had complex societies and families. They are hurt in the process of being removed and then sold to who? Usually an person who is new to reptiles and thinks "awwww! It is so cute!" Or "what a great family pet! The guy says it is easy to care for!" They are most likely kept in very small enclosures. It is very sad but it is the pet trade world :(. And still, we never knew what that little tort would have became in the wild. Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions but sadly some still get into the pet trade and go to bad homes. Most though go to good homes but those are usually breeders. Mass breeders of animals almost all the time end up in the pet trade, pet stores, and food a.k.a tort soup. It is a cruel world and little torts struggle to survive. Some thrive, some don't. It is life and we should give it a fighting chance.
 

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mattgrizzlybear said:
I really don't like wild caught because they are taken out of the wild against there will. They lived in peace and what do we know? They could have had complex societies and families. They are hurt in the process of being removed and then sold to who? Usually an person who is new to reptiles and thinks "awwww! It is so cute!" Or "what a great family pet! The guy says it is easy to care for!" They are most likely kept in very small enclosures. It is very sad but it is the pet trade world :(. And still, we never knew what that little tort would have became in the wild. Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions but sadly some still get into the pet trade and go to bad homes. Most though go to good homes but those are usually breeders. Mass breeders of animals almost all the time end up in the pet trade, pet stores, and food a.k.a tort soup. It is a cruel world and little torts struggle to survive. Some thrive, some don't. It is life and we should give it a fighting chance.

Precisely. Yet another reason NOT to buy WC.
 

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Jacqui, you said you have WC Horsfields? Here in the UK there are very few WC ones, nearly all are CB(because the majority of tortoise owners now buy from breeders)[/align] now except for some pet shops. The WC ones are generally more expensive as well.
 

Jacqui

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mattgrizzlybear said:
I really don't like wild caught because they are taken out of the wild against there will. They lived in peace and what do we know? They could have had complex societies and families. They are hurt in the process of being removed and then sold to who? Usually an person who is new to reptiles and thinks "awwww! It is so cute!" Or "what a great family pet! The guy says it is easy to care for!" They are most likely kept in very small enclosures. It is very sad but it is the pet trade world :(. And still, we never knew what that little tort would have became in the wild. Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions but sadly some still get into the pet trade and go to bad homes. Most though go to good homes but those are usually breeders. Mass breeders of animals almost all the time end up in the pet trade, pet stores, and food a.k.a tort soup. It is a cruel world and little torts struggle to survive. Some thrive, some don't. It is life and we should give it a fighting chance.

I think you have a very beautiful, but untrue picture of life in the wild. It is not the picnic of great freedom we all want to think of. With freedom comes great prices. Starting as en egg, you face dangers from predators digging you up before you even hatch. The nest site your mother picked may not have been that good, so you may die during a flood. Or would it be a lack of moisture? Too much heat? Too much cold that kills you while still in the egg. Of the few that do hatch, you face an even greater array of hungry predators and climate issues to over come. Your days are not spent happily grazing in the sunshine, no you must always be on the watch for all those hungry mouths from above and below. A drought can wipe out your food supply, so you may face long term hunger. Even something not meaning to eat you, may come along and hurt you by accident, like that water buffalo. One misstep and off the cliff you fall, landing on your back, in that glorious sun with no nice human to place you back on your feet. Life as a captive, while not free is a life of luxury unknown to a wild animal.

I do wonder why you think WC face such horrible captive living conditions ("kept in very small enclosures"), yet also think CB animals live better in those same homes ("Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions"). Or how a pet from a pet store will be going to a bad home (" pet trade and go to bad homes"). Take time to look around in this forum alone and see how many wonderful homes, tortoises sold in the "pet trade" are now living.

What makes a "mass breeder" the person with 20 pancakes who produces 40 hatchlings or the lady down the block with 1 pair of sulcata producing 60? Being bred by a breeder or sold without ever being in a pet store does not guarantee better health, better care, or a better life in any way. Nor does being a breeder automatically give you great knowledge of tortoise care.
 

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I don't know about the US, but here most pet shops hand out very bad advice and charge a fortune more than a breeder. For instance, Hermann's usually cost £100 from a breeder here, from pet shops between £125-160. Red Foots £100(they are not as common here as in the US) from breeder, WC specimens from pet shop around £140-160 and so on.
 

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Very well said Jacqui. I agree.


FLINTUS said:
I don't know about the US, but here most pet shops hand out very bad advice and charge a fortune more than a breeder. For instance, Hermann's usually cost £100 from a breeder here, from pet shops between £125-160. Red Foots £100(they are not as common here as in the US) from breeder, WC specimens from pet shop around £140-160 and so on.

It is similar on all counts here in the US. Store fronts will always have to charge more to cover all their expenses. Rent, utilities, government fees for businesses, etc... Really its a wonder they don't have to charge more.
 

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I breed and raise lots of finches. We struggle with the same issues. With birds obviously we would prefer to buy captive bred versus wild caught. We understand that the captive bred ones come from wold caught stock but hope by buying them we alleviate the stress on wild bird populations. I feel the same about the tortoises but agree with many that the wild tortoises struggle with habitat loss, predators and human harvesting for either food or sales. It's for sure complicated. I think it may come down to individual species. Which species are better to purchase as captives or wild caughts. Good points for both sides have been written here.
 

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Jacqui said:
mattgrizzlybear said:
I really don't like wild caught because they are taken out of the wild against there will. They lived in peace and what do we know? They could have had complex societies and families. They are hurt in the process of being removed and then sold to who? Usually an person who is new to reptiles and thinks "awwww! It is so cute!" Or "what a great family pet! The guy says it is easy to care for!" They are most likely kept in very small enclosures. It is very sad but it is the pet trade world :(. And still, we never knew what that little tort would have became in the wild. Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions but sadly some still get into the pet trade and go to bad homes. Most though go to good homes but those are usually breeders. Mass breeders of animals almost all the time end up in the pet trade, pet stores, and food a.k.a tort soup. It is a cruel world and little torts struggle to survive. Some thrive, some don't. It is life and we should give it a fighting chance.

I think you have a very beautiful, but untrue picture of life in the wild. It is not the picnic of great freedom we all want to think of. With freedom comes great prices. Starting as en egg, you face dangers from predators digging you up before you even hatch. The nest site your mother picked may not have been that good, so you may die during a flood. Or would it be a lack of moisture? Too much heat? Too much cold that kills you while still in the egg. Of the few that do hatch, you face an even greater array of hungry predators and climate issues to over come. Your days are not spent happily grazing in the sunshine, no you must always be on the watch for all those hungry mouths from above and below. A drought can wipe out your food supply, so you may face long term hunger. Even something not meaning to eat you, may come along and hurt you by accident, like that water buffalo. One misstep and off the cliff you fall, landing on your back, in that glorious sun with no nice human to place you back on your feet. Life as a captive, while not free is a life of luxury unknown to a wild animal.

I do wonder why you think WC face such horrible captive living conditions ("kept in very small enclosures"), yet also think CB animals live better in those same homes ("Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions"). Or how a pet from a pet store will be going to a bad home (" pet trade and go to bad homes"). Take time to look around in this forum alone and see how many wonderful homes, tortoises sold in the "pet trade" are now living.

What makes a "mass breeder" the person with 20 pancakes who produces 40 hatchlings or the lady down the block with 1 pair of sulcata producing 60? Being bred by a breeder or sold without ever being in a pet store does not guarantee better health, better care, or a better life in any way. Nor does being a breeder automatically give you great knowledge of tortoise care.

Thank you.
 

RedfootsRule

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Jacqui said:
mattgrizzlybear said:
I really don't like wild caught because they are taken out of the wild against there will. They lived in peace and what do we know? They could have had complex societies and families. They are hurt in the process of being removed and then sold to who? Usually an person who is new to reptiles and thinks "awwww! It is so cute!" Or "what a great family pet! The guy says it is easy to care for!" They are most likely kept in very small enclosures. It is very sad but it is the pet trade world :(. And still, we never knew what that little tort would have became in the wild. Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions but sadly some still get into the pet trade and go to bad homes. Most though go to good homes but those are usually breeders. Mass breeders of animals almost all the time end up in the pet trade, pet stores, and food a.k.a tort soup. It is a cruel world and little torts struggle to survive. Some thrive, some don't. It is life and we should give it a fighting chance.

I think you have a very beautiful, but untrue picture of life in the wild. It is not the picnic of great freedom we all want to think of. With freedom comes great prices. Starting as en egg, you face dangers from predators digging you up before you even hatch. The nest site your mother picked may not have been that good, so you may die during a flood. Or would it be a lack of moisture? Too much heat? Too much cold that kills you while still in the egg. Of the few that do hatch, you face an even greater array of hungry predators and climate issues to over come. Your days are not spent happily grazing in the sunshine, no you must always be on the watch for all those hungry mouths from above and below. A drought can wipe out your food supply, so you may face long term hunger. Even something not meaning to eat you, may come along and hurt you by accident, like that water buffalo. One misstep and off the cliff you fall, landing on your back, in that glorious sun with no nice human to place you back on your feet. Life as a captive, while not free is a life of luxury unknown to a wild animal.

I do wonder why you think WC face such horrible captive living conditions ("kept in very small enclosures"), yet also think CB animals live better in those same homes ("Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions"). Or how a pet from a pet store will be going to a bad home (" pet trade and go to bad homes"). Take time to look around in this forum alone and see how many wonderful homes, tortoises sold in the "pet trade" are now living.

What makes a "mass breeder" the person with 20 pancakes who produces 40 hatchlings or the lady down the block with 1 pair of sulcata producing 60? Being bred by a breeder or sold without ever being in a pet store does not guarantee better health, better care, or a better life in any way. Nor does being a breeder automatically give you great knowledge of tortoise care.

Wait. Hold on.

Are we actually saying animals are better off in captivity because "they face so many dangers in the wild"? They were born that way! Animals were born in the wild to be there; not born in the wild to be kidnapped by humans.

They may die in the wild. They may die a lot in the wild. Sure, they face a large array of dangers; but thats how they were made. I would believe any WC animal would rather die free then live caged for the rest of its life...

And yes, it is different then CB animals. CB animals are born into captivity; its all they know, they don't spend the days dreaming of what it was like. But WC are taken out of a beautiful (yet dangerous) life to live one of confinement.
How fair does that sound?

And regardless of how the animal feels, we're eliminating them from contributing to the food chain. Another step of humans screwing around with the natural way of things.
 

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Are we actually saying animals are better off in captivity because "they face so many dangers in the wild"? They were born that way! Animals were born in the wild to be there; not born in the wild to be kidnapped by humans.

They may die in the wild. They may die a lot in the wild. Sure, they face a large array of dangers; but thats how they were made. I would believe any WC animal would rather die free then live caged for the rest of its life...

We all die, we are designed to do that from the moment we are born...also, so many captive/confined torts-turtles die every day in captivity...captive is not the cure all to living forever :D

we're eliminating them from contributing to the food chain. Another step of humans screwing around with the natural way of things.

I do not believe we humans are qualified to make these choices and decisions, we just are not...the proof of this is how we now are taking the credit for "saving" so many species and how they would "not make it if not for our intervention"...well, had we not been raping and pillaging what is not ours to devour ---we would not have to be cleaning up our messes, we infest this world with such irresponsible over population of our species which seems to lead us to believe that we have some greater right to this world, so unbalanced...now, this is just a belief of mine and I am in no way trying to waiver nor judge someone else beliefs...
 
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