Smelly sulcata baby tort!!

[tortoisenerd]

Lisa: Hope someone else chimes in...first thought is that you need to find why he is retaining so much water, and find a solution...not just wait for it to go away and soak less (but I'm no expert!). How often and for how long were you soaking? Even daily for 15 minutes for a hatchling should be fine, and in fact, recommended by many (although personally I don't like the forced soaks). I kinda doubt any sort of reasonable amount of soaking could cause that sort of swelling and the way the skin looks. Good job saying no to the vitamin injection. So you went to an emergency vet but have your appointment still Monday? Sounds good.

On TNT & calcium & UVB: I think with UVB and sun you never need to supplement D3. For my two year old tort I alternate days of pure calcium and TNT over the food. I don't think you can overdose on the TNT in any reasonable amount because its just natural ground up stuff. Depending on your tort's age would determine a recommended calcium amount, but this really varies person to person as we all have our opinions (not too much data out there...except that recentish post that now I can't find). If hes getting hours of sun almost daily, the MVB is probably overkill, so if you just wanted to go to a regular bulb to save the money (as long as the sun exposure is maintained), thats an option.

 

[TortieGal]

I agree with Tortoisenerd that doesn't make since. Look how wet Tom keeps his torts and has no problems of over hydrating or any shell rot. I am glad you’re going to a different Vet soon. I'm no expert but did he check the liver?
Thanks for keeping us updated, Hope he gets better soon.

 

[Torty Mom]

I agree, good call on the vitamin shot. Did the Vet have tortie experience?

 

[lisalove]

I agree, good call on the vitamin shot. Did the Vet have tortie experience?

Yes-he has tortoises himself too.
Looking forward to what my vet has to say tomorrow.

 

[Kristina]

I think with UVB and sun you never need to supplement D3.

This isn't always true. Tortoises seem to have some individuality on how much D3 they need to absorb calcium. Baby Sulcatas especially are susceptible to fatal MBD, or "failure to thrive." It is often brought on by dehydration, but being kept too dry as babies seems to start a chain reaction which leads to organ failure and associated MBD. Since the damage can be done while the baby is still in the care of the breeder, it isn't safe to assume that they are properly assimilating calcium through UV lighting alone.

To parrot Danny (egyptiandan,) a lot of people say that it is possible to overdose D3, but have you ever actually SEEN a tortoise suffering from D3 overdose? I haven't, and neither has Danny.

It is perfectly okay to supplement D3 a couple times a week in conjunction with UV lighting, but it is disastrous for a baby to not receive enough D3 and develop MDB at a young age. It can quickly prove deadly, it is difficult to bring them back after they start the downward spiral, plus it damages the internal organs and can lead to health problems later in life.

Russian tortoises do not seem to require the same levels of D3 as Sulcatas.

 

[lisalove]

On TNT & calcium & UVB: I think with UVB and sun you never need to supplement D3. For my two year old tort I alternate days of pure calcium and TNT over the food. I don't think you can overdose on the TNT in any reasonable amount because its just natural ground up stuff. Depending on your tort's age would determine a recommended calcium amount, but this really varies person to person as we all have our opinions (not too much data out there...except that recentish post that now I can't find). If hes getting hours of sun almost daily, the MVB is probably overkill, so if you just wanted to go to a regular bulb to save the money (as long as the sun exposure is maintained), thats an option.

Hi-
Thanks for the help. Is the calcium you use NOW Calcium Carbonate?

 

[exoticsdr]

Many things can be causing edema that severe, including congenital heart problems, liver or kidney problems and it's not unusual, especially in young animals, for them to be completely normal until they reach a certain point in their growth when the problem organ system can no longer compensate...in in effect, no problem today, but big problems tomorrow with virutally no notice. That said, I wonder about an allergic reaction to something in it's environment..food, bedding, cleaning supplies, food/water container allergies (sounds odd, huh?). What about temps, any chance of a too high temp or stray voltage from a frayed cord? Just throwing out some ideas.

 

[Tom]

Here are some thoughts on all this: Many are of the opinion that reptiles cannot even use dietary D3. I use a little throughout the winter, just in case they are wrong. I don't use any in summer.

Tortoisenerd is right about the "overly hydrated" thing. If they got all puffy from too much hydration ALL of mine would look like good year blimps. Something is causing him to swell up like that. That is one reason I take hydration to the extreme. To show that even at ridiculous levels, it does no harm. So everyone else who uses a more "reasonable" amount of wetness should do so with no fear or worry.

I had a friend with a Jackson's chameleon that randomly and periodically suffered from edema (swelling, due to water retention). The vet determined, after blood tests and exams, that it was due too hypervitaminosis, specifically vitamin A. Apparently one of the symptoms of too much vitamin A can be edema. (Chime in here Dr. Westin, if any of this is not right.) He was gut loading his crickets with carrots. We figured that since beta-carotine is only the precursor to vitamin A that all the carrots in the world shouldn't hurt anything. He switched to potatoes instead of carrot and the problem immediately and permanently disappeared. So, Lisalove, I would try cutting out the TNT for a couple of weeks and see what happens. Cut the calcium down to once or twice a week and just feed good plain food. Many people have raised healthy torts with little or no supplementation EVER, so a couple or three weeks with out any should not have ANY detrimental effects on your little man.

 

[exoticsdr]

You know, Vitamin A problems (hypovitaminosis A and hypervitaminosis A) can be tricky conditions.

Vit A deficiency has classically been diagnosed because torts and box turtles had puffy eyes (edema in the lids and Harderian glands) and then to treat it we started giving Vit A injections and rocked the teeter-totter in the opposite direction and found massive edema in the soft tissues and necrosis and sloughing of the skin.

Unfortunately, both conditions can cause similar signs of edema....I personally wouldn't supplement it or D3 if I knew I was feeding an adequate diet also and if your hanging out on this site, there is little excuse to be feeding improperly.

I don't believe it's a hypervitaminosis D3, but I guess it's possible. This condition causes soft tissue calcification and if it's happening in the kidneys or liver you could get this kind of edema.

I'm looking forward to find out if bloodwork or radiographs are done and if they tell any stories.

 

[Tom]

So Dr. Westin, do think my suggestion of cutting out the supplements for a few weeks and seeing what happens is an OK plan to start with?

 

[tortoisenerd]

Lisa-Yes, I use the NOW brand, but any type should be fine as long as its pure...its just the human ones tend to be cheaper than the reptile stuff, partially due to being able to buy it more in bulk. Calcium & D3 & other supplement use will always be a hot topic here, so I'm sorry if it seems like everyone is leading you in different directions (that is not our intent). I kinda doubt even a daily sprinkling of the TNT could cause anything like this (as its just greens and weeds the tort would get in a good natural diet), but cutting back on the supplements hopefully wouldn't hurt (although cutting out calcium in a tort this age already having health issues scares me, but I'm not the expert here).

Here's a helpful thread: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Swollen-Tortoise

Infection seems most likely, assuming the smell and swelling/edema are related. Its confusing me that this is happening to an assumed well hydrated tort, as the cases I was reading about that seem similar were assumed to be in dehydrated hatchlings. I'd bring a fecal sample to the vet visit tomorrow to get tested for parasites, if possible. Good luck!

 

[exoticsdr]

So Dr. Westin, do think my suggestion of cutting out the supplements for a few weeks and seeing what happens is an OK plan to start with?

That's exactly where I would start....along with that vet visit of course. Just wish we had smell-a-vision..you can tell so much with those olfactory clues.

Don't know what the TNT is, I'm assuming a packaged food for torts. Might want to discontinue it also, at least temporarily. If it is an allergic reaction, it is going to take some detective work and time to remove and replace food stuffs, caging material with others to see if it helps.

 

[lisalove]

Thank you to everyone for your advice and ideas, I really appreciate all of it. I will be cutting the TNT for now to see what happens, as that is the only real change I've made right before this all happened.
I will cut calcium to a couple times, if not once a week for now as well.
He isn't eating as much right now-though he is eating some, but he is pooping and peeing just fine-like before.
As for his environment-he has been raised using Tom's guidelines (thanks Tom-I appreciate you!) and I am confident I'm doing everything I possibly can.
I did have him tested for parasites 2 weeks ago-he was fine.
Right now, he's roaming around his outdoor enclosure in the sun.
I, on the other hand, am beside myself. He is such a sweet little guy and it pains me to think that he's sick.
I will follow up with everyone tomorrow after the vet visit.
Please don't forget about us!
Thanks again.
FYI-I will read over all your comments, advice and ideas again after the vet visit-so please keep them coming should you all have any other thoughts.

 

[Tracy Gould]

Hi I hope your Tort gets well soon. Have u checked the outdoor pen for stray weeds i am wondering if something as grown in there that is not good to eat, just a thought.

 

[tortoisenerd]

(TNT, Total Nutrition for Tortoises, is a natural supplement powder sold from CarolinaPetSupply.com, with or without a probiotics, that is just natural ground up weeds and such)

 

[lisalove]

Hi I hope your Tort gets well soon. Have u checked the outdoor pen for stray weeds i am wondering if something as grown in there that is not good to eat, just a thought.

Thanks-
His 5'x5' outdoor enclosure is set up on my tile table.
He only has access to what I put in there.

---

So Dr. Westin, do think my suggestion of cutting out the supplements for a few weeks and seeing what happens is an OK plan to start with?

That's exactly where I would start....along with that vet visit of course. Just wish we had smell-a-vision..you can tell so much with those olfactory clues.

Hi Dr. Westin:
Actually, when I took him to the vet yesterday, they couldn't smell anything. I don't smell anything today either.
It was never an 'infection' type smell to me, but I'm not the pro.

 

[exoticsdr]

My gut is telling me you have something in his environment (either contact exposure or being eaten) that he is having an allergic reaction to, but like I said before...edema can be a symptom of so many different things, it's often hard to know where to start. Please keep us posted.

 

[RianSeeking]

I'm keeping fingers crossed for you, Lisa.

My female Russian still suffers from edema. I've changed her diet as the vet suggested, and she's gotten a lot better, but not 100 percent. She's never had any odd smells. She seems perfectly happy and very vigorous.

I DO know that the first thing I look at if there is any odd change in my kids, dogs or horses is diet. Usually I go back to the very basics and give it some time.

I'm glad you're taking her to the vet tomorrow.

 

[lisalove]

I'm keeping fingers crossed for you, Lisa.

My female Russian still suffers from edema. I've changed her diet as the vet suggested, and she's gotten a lot better, but not 100 percent. She's never had any odd smells. She seems perfectly happy and very vigorous.

I DO know that the first thing I look at if there is any odd change in my kids, dogs or horses is diet. Usually I go back to the very basics and give it some time.

I'm glad you're taking her to the vet tomorrow.

Thanks-
What are you feeding her now?

 

[lisalove]

My gut is telling me you have something in his environment (either contact exposure or being eaten) that he is having an allergic reaction to, but like I said before...edema can be a symptom of so many different things, it's often hard to know where to start. Please keep us posted.

That's a tough one since I haven't changed anything.
Maybe I'll have to eliminate one thing at a time.
I will definitely have them run whatever tests they can.
I'll post an update.
Thank you so much.