Slovenian tortoise farms, fact or fiction?

[TylerStewart]

There is a single sulcata breeder here in the US that produces around 10,000 babies every year. Most of them are sold over seas to Asian countries. I don't want to know what for. I don't have names or scientific citations, but this was told to me by a guy who was in the reptile importation business for longer than I've been alive and was agreed upon by other, very astute reptile professionals attending the conversation. Just throwing that little tid-bit out there. 5000 in all of Europe doesn't seem impossible to me.

Shhh.... You're gonna get a protest started outside the guy's gate LOL.... That's a sensitive subject around here.

 

[gummybearpoop]

There is a single sulcata breeder here in the US that produces around 10,000 babies every year. Most of them are sold over seas to Asian countries. I don't want to know what for. I don't have names or scientific citations, but this was told to me by a guy who was in the reptile importation business for longer than I've been alive and was agreed upon by other, very astute reptile professionals attending the conversation. Just throwing that little tid-bit out there. 5000 in all of Europe doesn't seem impossible to me.

Is this breeder in Arizona?

 

[GBtortoises]

An interesting Email sent to me from a good friend just this morning. This person is "in the business" of tortoises and turtles:

"The outdoor pens are obviously just holding pens for wild female hermanns to lay their eggs before being sold. I suspect if a raid of that facility were to occur, large quantities of Oxytocin would be found. I have seen this before with box turtles and western painted turtles. Large numbers are collected at the onset of laying and held until the eggs are laid or harvested via injection. Then the females are sold or sometimes butchered.
I went undercover one time about fifteen years ago to a "Turtle Farm" that the DNR had declared legit.
They were butchering and harvesting eggs, meat and shells from snappers, western paints, maps, 3 toe box, eastern box and red ears. There was no nesting of any kind going on at this place.
I notice in the pics that adults are depicted and so are eggs. Oddly no pictures of digging eggs or of mating hermanns. In an enclosure the size of the outdoor areas with that many Hermanns, I doubt you could even take a picture that didn't show at least one male mounting a female.
Slovania is a place where permits are bought and sold and reputations as well.
In Uzbekistan its not much better. There are 4 licensed exporters in the country. One is owned by the Government and the other 3 are privately owned. A lot of money is paid to the Government for the license. Each of the 4 ships out 25,000 russian Tortoises a year. If one of them comes up short on the quota, the remainder of the quota made up by the other 3. The Uzbek CITES office permits the export of 100,000 annually to leave the country legally. Unfortunately if you want to ship more, all you have to do is pay the CITES officer and he will allow you're shipment to go out.
One of the Exporters is trying to "Ranch" them in accordance with IUCN protocol. That's the one I am working with. In a nutshell the crews go out into the Desert at the onset of the mass emergence. Females are collected and injected with Oxytocin. Eggs are harvested and females are released back to the desert. The eggs are incubated and the resulting babies are shipped as hatchlings to Japan, the remaining hatchlings are put into a grow out facility. When they reach 6-8 CM they are shipped to EU. The remaing ones are then released back into the Desert as the repatriated animals that supposedly would have survived in the wild. In reality by the time they reach 10 CM they are too lumpy to sell on the US market, so they are essentially worthless and released.
I think these folks are on the right track, but are going about it with some major flaws. I don't need to point out the flaws to you as I'm sure they are obvious. So that being said, No there is not a legit Tortoise farm in Uzbekistan either. I hope that one day with my support and guidance, there will be, but I doubt it.
The fact is that wherever Tortoises occur they are viewed by the locals as American, European and Japanese dollars blowing in the wind.
Use this info as you see fit."

 

[-EJ]

This friend is obviously not 'in the business'. The business would be the pet trade... but I guess you can call conservation a business.

Did you notice the 3 hermanns nesting in the one photo??????

Again... even if they are doing what has been done with the Ball pythons... is that wrong. Your friend even admits this is a viable option.

The deal with the Russians can be as you imply but this is obviously not the case with the Slovenian farm.

An interesting Email sent to me from a good friend just this morning. This person is "in the business" of tortoises and turtles:

"The outdoor pens are obviously just holding pens for wild female hermanns to lay their eggs before being sold. I suspect if a raid of that facility were to occur, large quantities of Oxytocin would be found. I have seen this before with box turtles and western painted turtles. Large numbers are collected at the onset of laying and held until the eggs are laid or harvested via injection. Then the females are sold or sometimes butchered.
I went undercover one time about fifteen years ago to a "Turtle Farm" that the DNR had declared legit.
They were butchering and harvesting eggs, meat and shells from snappers, western paints, maps, 3 toe box, eastern box and red ears. There was no nesting of any kind going on at this place.
I notice in the pics that adults are depicted and so are eggs. Oddly no pictures of digging eggs or of mating hermanns. In an enclosure the size of the outdoor areas with that many Hermanns, I doubt you could even take a picture that didn't show at least one male mounting a female.
Slovania is a place where permits are bought and sold and reputations as well.
In Uzbekistan its not much better. There are 4 licensed exporters in the country. One is owned by the Government and the other 3 are privately owned. A lot of money is paid to the Government for the license. Each of the 4 ships out 25,000 russian Tortoises a year. If one of them comes up short on the quota, the remainder of the quota made up by the other 3. The Uzbek CITES office permits the export of 100,000 annually to leave the country legally. Unfortunately if you want to ship more, all you have to do is pay the CITES officer and he will allow you're shipment to go out.
One of the Exporters is trying to "Ranch" them in accordance with IUCN protocol. That's the one I am working with. In a nutshell the crews go out into the Desert at the onset of the mass emergence. Females are collected and injected with Oxytocin. Eggs are harvested and females are released back to the desert. The eggs are incubated and the resulting babies are shipped as hatchlings to Japan, the remaining hatchlings are put into a grow out facility. When they reach 6-8 CM they are shipped to EU. The remaing ones are then released back into the Desert as the repatriated animals that supposedly would have survived in the wild. In reality by the time they reach 10 CM they are too lumpy to sell on the US market, so they are essentially worthless and released.
I think these folks are on the right track, but are going about it with some major flaws. I don't need to point out the flaws to you as I'm sure they are obvious. So that being said, No there is not a legit Tortoise farm in Uzbekistan either. I hope that one day with my support and guidance, there will be, but I doubt it.
The fact is that wherever Tortoises occur they are viewed by the locals as American, European and Japanese dollars blowing in the wind.
Use this info as you see fit."

 

[gummybearpoop]

Speaking of Slovenia....




This was on kingsnake.com classifieds.
Sellers location: europe/slovenia

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=39&de=754083

 

[t_mclellan]

As I mentioned in the "Farm" thread,
I have a friend in Slovenia.
He is not a tortoise keeper himself so take that into consideration please.
He has agreed to look into the farms there & here are excerpts from his e-mails.

First response;

Hello Coo!
I am just fine, thank you!
I watched over my ex-neighbour pets, and she had (among dog, cat, flies, fishes and a
skunk) several tortoises. I remember feeding them, and one of them was always
following me around. Sweet-heart she was....
I am sorry for delayed response, I've been busy.
I searched for this farm, but I could not get the hold of it...
One thing is for sure, it is in Slovenia, since one photo has Slovenian national symbol, so
called 'kozolc', so I will find this farm!
I also joined local forum, but so far no luck...
Actually, I found more bad stuff, than good.
Slovenia is small, and the level of corruption does not seas to fury me.
I found one guy, he loves his tortoises, and he is taking them from people that can not any
longer take care of them.
As I understand, tortoises can be quite litter, and there is question of tortoises well being.
But, he has some kind of certificate, so he is legally good.
The explanation behind is, that it is better to give it to this guy, than to set tortoises free
into the nature.
Following that debate, I found that tortoises paper corruption is high, as mentioned in this
article here:
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/imports.html
I will get in touch as soon I find out more, but for now it is status quo...
Best regards,
--
Goran


His second response;

Huh, I think I got it.
Dular Žiga Aleksander,
Cesta Maršala Tita 96,
4270 Jesenice.
Farm's location:
Zapoge 11,
Vodice
He has couple of other farms as well.
Unfortunately, his business, ANIMAL BREEDING AND RESEARCH CENTER is out
of business since February 11th, 2009.
I guess, the farm is still up and running....
There is no web page, only phone number (++386) (0)4 586 60 80,
but no one is answering it right now. No mobile phone.
I will get in touch with this guy, and ask about his farm. If it is still up and running I will
pay him a visit and get as much info as I can.
--
Goran


This was what he sent as of last night.
Goran will find out if they actually BREED these animals & knowing Goran,
Much more.
Hope this helps.

 

[-EJ]

Keep in mind that certain organizations/businesses do have a bias. Some even write about things where they don't have any direct knowledge. They often take information out of context to make their not to objective point of view more credible.

As I mentioned in the "Farm" thread,
I have a friend in Slovenia.
He is not a tortoise keeper himself so take that into consideration please.
He has agreed to look into the farms there & here are excerpts from his e-mails.

First response;

Hello Coo!
I am just fine, thank you!
I watched over my ex-neighbour pets, and she had (among dog, cat, flies, fishes and a
skunk) several tortoises. I remember feeding them, and one of them was always
following me around. Sweet-heart she was....
I am sorry for delayed response, I've been busy.
I searched for this farm, but I could not get the hold of it...
One thing is for sure, it is in Slovenia, since one photo has Slovenian national symbol, so
called 'kozolc', so I will find this farm!
I also joined local forum, but so far no luck...
Actually, I found more bad stuff, than good.
Slovenia is small, and the level of corruption does not seas to fury me.
I found one guy, he loves his tortoises, and he is taking them from people that can not any
longer take care of them.
As I understand, tortoises can be quite litter, and there is question of tortoises well being.
But, he has some kind of certificate, so he is legally good.
The explanation behind is, that it is better to give it to this guy, than to set tortoises free
into the nature.
Following that debate, I found that tortoises paper corruption is high, as mentioned in this
article here:
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/imports.html
I will get in touch as soon I find out more, but for now it is status quo...
Best regards,
--
Goran


His second response;

Huh, I think I got it.
Dular Žiga Aleksander,
Cesta Maršala Tita 96,
4270 Jesenice.
Farm's location:
Zapoge 11,
Vodice
He has couple of other farms as well.
Unfortunately, his business, ANIMAL BREEDING AND RESEARCH CENTER is out
of business since February 11th, 2009.
I guess, the farm is still up and running....
There is no web page, only phone number (++386) (0)4 586 60 80,
but no one is answering it right now. No mobile phone.
I will get in touch with this guy, and ask about his farm. If it is still up and running I will
pay him a visit and get as much info as I can.
--
Goran


This was what he sent as of last night.
Goran will find out if they actually BREED these animals & knowing Goran,
Much more.
Hope this helps.

 

[t_mclellan]

Hi EJ;
My friend Goran is a good man & what I asked him to find our was if the farm was "Breeding" tortoises on a regular basis.
I (& he) realize that just because the farm's business "NAME" goes away. Does not mean a thing. They might just be changing something for whatever reason.

Goran will be insufferably pleased with his countrymen if the farm is in face still operating.
At the moment he is just superbly pleased that these animals are IN his country!

I think his derogatory remarks were aimed at his countries corruption and nothing more.

 

[-EJ]

I don't see anywhere that I might have even implied anything about your friends character.

My comment was aimed at the keeper who really doesn't quite understands or sees the politics and business end of chelonian keeping. No, one single, source should be relied upon to give them a clear picture one way or the other and that the closer they can get to the source of information the more complete and accurate a picture they can put together.

Again... part of the story that my friend gathered from his trip was that there used to be a bunch of little farms which were combined one way or another.

Hi EJ;
My friend Goran is a good man & what I asked him to find our was if the farm was "Breeding" tortoises on a regular basis.
I (& he) realize that just because the farm's business "NAME" goes away. Does not mean a thing. They might just be changing something for whatever reason.

Goran will be insufferably pleased with his countrymen if the farm is in face still operating.
At the moment he is just superbly pleased that these animals are IN his country!

I think his derogatory remarks were aimed at his countries corruption and nothing more.

 

[t_mclellan]

I didn't think you implied anything ether?!
As for the 1 business mentioned, If several farms combined I would think that would be a good reason for finding that 1 or all had gone out of business.

As I said my friend is happy that the farm is there & believes that it is great for his country.

Don't pick on me I'm sensitive!

Take care.