Slovenian tortoise farms, fact or fiction?

[GBtortoises]

For those of you who were not following the posts about the photos of the Slovenian tortoise farms in the general tortoise discussion forum check them out.

As much as I would like to believe that they exist, so far all I have seen is basically the same photos of the same tortoise set ups. No specifics, no solid evidence that captive breeding tortoise farms exist in Slovenia.

So I put forth a challenge to TFO members. Show some physical evidence to back up the photos. Make me a believer.

Do they exist or don't they?

 

[chadk]

So what are you suggesting those were pics of? Montanna? Chicken farms? Creative photochopping?

 

[Nay]

Just curious, is this a thread started from EJ's Slovenian farms part 2, or is there a thread I missed?? It seems I am missing the beginning. It seems like interesting reading. and unbelievable pictures, (I mean I believe them, it's just seeing all those torts at one time)

Thanks
OK never mind, I just had clicked on new posts and then went back and saw part 1.
Going back to read it now.

 

[Tom]

If that is not a Slovenian tortoise farm, then what is it? Are you suggesting that it is in fact not in Slovenia or that its not a tortoise farm? Do you think its a w/c holding/shipping company? I've never even heard of a Slovenian tortoise farm so this is all new to me. I'm going to go back and review the pics for details in the background.

 

[dreadyA]

I think its possible that it might be a wc holding facility but that is no doubt someones dream job...so I can see how at least one person in the world is capable of having a "proper farm".

 

[Stephanie Logan]

I don't know much about tortoise farms either foreign or domestic, but I did pull up a page on the Slovenian climate, which is "Mediterranean" on the south coast (which is just across from Venice latitudinally), so maybe it is possible to have a large spread where the tortoises could stay outside for most of the year.

http://www.worldtravelguide.net/country/252/climate/Europe/Slovenia.html

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't understand why some of you don't believe it is real. And if not real, what is it?

 

[terracolson]

I support what your saying, this place is REAL but its not natural, these guys were ripped from nature ... your not the only one with this thought, check out the tortoise trust article:

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/imports.html

"The numbers being cited are also cause for grave concern. One well-known dealer stated that he could easily obtain “5,000 tortoises a year with certificates”. There is, in our opinion, absolutely no way that this quantity could possibly be bred commercially within Europe. We find it far more interesting that the two countries most frequently involved, Lebanon and Slovenia, are better known for the ready availability of fraudulent CITES documentation than they are for genuine captive-breeding expertise! "

---

check out the other pictures

http://jacquiscaptivebredtortoises.com/the_pet_trade_and_imported_tortoises

 

[Stephanie Logan]

My Google search found nothing definitive in either direction.

Here's a forum conversation similar to the one we're having here:
http://www.captivebred.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19456

This one advertises for a tortoise broker to sub contract tortoise sales from Slovenia to northern England:
http://www.knoethig.de/forum/messages/350.html

Then there is this abstract of a study of Slovenian Tortoise farms...but no study, since I don't subscribe to the organization:
http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20053143753

 

[Kirkie]

This is a subject close to my heart. Below are the findings of a report into the Slovinian tortoise farms from 2005. I'm in the UK and CITES licencing is hndled by DEFRA. I made a request for information regarding the number of article 10 licences issued in the UK for Hermann's tortoise, solely from Slovenia, just for the year 2007. The answer was over 17,000. I find it hard to reconcile these numbers with the number of annual hatchling from what is reportdly now just one farm is Slovenia.

The farm does exist, is is just that, a farm for the mass production of tortoises. It is listed in some european business directories:

http://europe.bloombiz.com/default.cgi/action/viewcompanies/companyid/558156/

In a recent article by Thomas and Sabine Vinke they explained the difficulties legitimate breeders have in establishing themselves in a trade in which they are undercut by cheap, wild caught specimens.

http://www.schildkroeten-im-fokus.de/pdf/2010tradestudy.pdf


The report:

THE BREEDING OF HERMANN`S TORTOISES (Testudo hermanni) IN SLOVENIA
Alenka Dovc, J. Racnik, O. Zorman Rojs, R. Lindtner Knific, U. Krapez, U, Mavri, A. Arih, K. Vlahovic
Vet. Nov. 2005, 31: 173-183
INTRODUCTION
Slovenian tortoise farms are the largest in EU (together with French and Italian farms), with approximately 2500 breeding animals. The most common species of tortoises bred in Slovenia is T. hermanni..
Slovenia is also one of the biggest exporters (95% of tortoises are exported) of T.hermanni in EU. In previous years most tortoises (79%) were exported to EU countries (Germany, UK, Italy, Spain, Sweden and Finland). 12% were exported to the US and 9% to Japan.
T. hermanni is a non-indigenous species and was brought to Slovenia from the Southern parts of former Yugoslavia.
One of the farms is located near Maribor. The breeding stock consists of 3300 animals, 2530 females and 770 males. The oldest animals (8 males, 26 females) were purchased in 1985 (F1 generation). The youngest animals from the breeding stock are from 1995. In 2002, the breeder purchased 950 captive bred animals (from F2 or F3 generation). Since then the size of the breeding stock has not changed. The male:female ratio is 1:3. The size of the outdoor enclosure is 7000m2.
The second farm is located near Vodice, with the breeding stock of 2780 animals, 2160 females and 620 males.
-Other species of tortoises, turtles and lizards also bred on this farm: (Emys orbicularis, Geochelone radiata, G. sulcata, G. elegans, Malacochersus tornieri, Testudo graeca, T. marginata, T. horsfieldii, Varanus sp. – 15 different species, Corucia zebrata, Uromastyx sp. – 11 different species, chameleons and several other species).
-Salamandra salamandra (A population of more than 1000).
The oldest breeding animals are from 1982 (F1), the youngest from 1994 (F2 or subsequent generations). The size of breeding stock has remained the same since. Male:female ratio is 1:4. First 200 females and 50 males (founder stock) were obtained in 1982 from Macedonia (captive bred).
Size of the outdoor enclosure is 6000m2. Groups of up to 500 animals are housed in separate 200-500m2 large pens.
GENERAL BREEDING CONDITIONS
From spring (april, may) until autumn (october, November), the animals are housed in an outdoor area (part open lawn area, few trees, shrubs, and wooden houses), secured with a wire fence. Animals are protected from severe weather conditions and predators.
Yearlings (up to 8 cm long) are housed indoors (with temperatures 20-25°C, additional lightning, and bedding), where they are given fresh fruit, vegetables, and protein pellets daily.Young animals housed indoors are fed protein pellets in winter as well, and do not hibernate.
5-80% of young animals hibernate, depending on the season. Young animals are moved to outdoor enclosures when they reach 1 year of age.
Maribor farm:
A spring runs through the enclosure, which provides animals with drinking water
Dular`s farm:
Animals are given fresh vegetables and fruit, drinking water is provided occasionally, when temperatures are very high.
REPRODUCTION
Maribor farm:
An estimated 85% of females are sexually active, and lay eggs in June-July (less in August). Some animals lay twice in one season. Clutch sizes vary, but on average an animal lays 4 eggs, younger animals 3, older animals up to 7 eggs. 70% of eggs are fertilised. Number of yearlings is 4000-4500.
Eggs are placed in incubators, where (28-32°C and 80% humidity) after 70-120 days, young animals hatch.
Yearlings are kept indoors, in terrariums (radius cca. 250cm) during winter months. Each terrarium contains 100-170 yearlings (depending on the size and age of animals).

Dular`s farm:
Egg laying starts in May, and continues in June and July. Approximately 90% of females are sexually active, the average clutch size is 4, 2 for younger animals, and 8 for older animals. 90% of eggs are fertilised. 5000 yearlings are bred each year.
Eggs are transferred to incubators, where after 60-70 days young animals hatch (28-32°C and 80% humidity).
First eggs were hatched in June, 2004.
In both farms, 90% of eggs are laid within 2 weeks. Eggs are taken to incubators located near the location of hatching, but always housed separately from the young animals.
Yearlings are housed in indoor terrariums (160x60x20cm). Each terrarium contains 30-100 animals.
Both breeders notice smaller number of females that lay eggs twice or three times per season.
When young animals reach 8 cm, they are transferred outdoors.
HIBERNATION
Animals hibernate in same enclosures where they are kept when active. All pens are inspected in autumn and spring (when the number of surviving animals is inspected). The number of animals is noted by breeders. Problems with hibernation can be eliminated with pre-hibernation housing (indoor open–topped pens with temperature between 0-10°C. Both breeders use this method for 0.5% (mostly injured or weak) of animals).
In spring (april), the animals end their hibernation. 90% of animals emerge from hibernation within 2 weeks.
Maribor farm:
Has been hibernating animals in outdoor enclosures for 15 years.
Dulars farm:
Has been using the same method for a few years, before that the animals were transferred indoors to hibernate.
Mortality during hibernation is 0.5% for both farms.
Young animals up to 3 years of age that are destined for export do not hibernate.
DIET:
Animals are fed daily, usually grass, flowers, fruit (most often strawberries), and vegetables. Occasional bathing is provided.

Most of the health problems are due to parasitic infestations. Veterinary measures on both farms in the last few years included checking of excrements for parasitological infestations

 

[GBtortoises]

So what are you suggesting those were pics of? Montanna? Chicken farms? Creative photochopping?

What I am suggesting is that regardless of where in the world this "farm" is located, is that it may be a holding facility where gravid females are being kept until they nest. From the photos posted, there is no conclusive way to prove if this is a legitimate farm or just an egg collection center. I personally would like to believe that it is a bonfide breeding operation that treats there breeding stock and offspring as humanely as possible in a farm situation in order to achieve continuous production from the same breeding stock year after year. I've seen no conditions that would suggest that these are actual, established breeding animals. Just groups of tortoises in barren, usually crowded enclosures, incubators with eggs in them and piles of young tortoises. Thus far no one seems to be able to find or produce physical evidence (addresses, contact people) that the place exists as a true, responsible farm.

---

If that is not a Slovenian tortoise farm, then what is it? Are you suggesting that it is in fact not in Slovenia or that its not a tortoise farm? Do you think its a w/c holding/shipping company? I've never even heard of a Slovenian tortoise farm so this is all new to me. I'm going to go back and review the pics for details in the background.

I'm not suggesting that it is or isn't in Slovenia. What I'm suggesting is that no one seems to be able to find it's physical location anywhere in the world! Or even that the photos are all from the same place. I'm not questioning what I actually see in the photos. I'm questioning all the things that appear to be missing in the photos. Mainly, any proof of their true location or validity. The photos of the Redfoots and Sulcatas could be at any import holding facility anywhere in the world. As could the photos of piles of young tortoises and incubators. The only one photos that may have some validity within them are those of the large fenced pen full of Hermann's tortoises. In that photo you can see buildings in the background of European design. Weak evidence but still possibly a clue.

I very much want to believe that it is in fact a legitimate captive breeding farm that relys on good husbandry practices to keep their adult breeders so that they will produce offspring year after year. But I don't see the conclusive proof of that yet.

At best right now all I can believe is that it is a facility where gravid females are placed into until they deposit eggs which are then incubated.

If it really exists as a farm that is performing such a revolutionary method of supplying the pet trade with thousands of animals instead of taking them from the wild than why can no one find anymore information about it other than the same half dozen photos that have been circulating the web for the past couple of years?

Like I said, I hope that it is legitimate. I think it would be awesome to be able to reduce and eventually stop collecting tortoises from the wild to fuel the pet trade. I'm all for the idea!

---

I don't know much about tortoise farms either foreign or domestic, but I did pull up a page on the Slovenian climate, which is "Mediterranean" on the south coast (which is just across from Venice latitudinally), so maybe it is possible to have a large spread where the tortoises could stay outside for most of the year.

http://www.worldtravelguide.net/country/252/climate/Europe/Slovenia.html
[/quote
That is absolutely true. Many Testudo species are found at that latitude in other countries. But all of them hibernate for at least 2 months in the wild so the same would have to hold true for any that are kept outdoors in captivity in the same area. It's also been a myth for the past 4-5 years that the Hermann's imported into the U.S. are from Slovenia, (started around the same time that the farm issue popped up).

There are no known Hermann's tortoise populations indigenous to the country of Slovenia.

---

Looks like a very interesting article! I'm going to read it a few times tonight. Thanks so much for the information!

Gary

---

 

[-EJ]

If you don't believe those photos nothing is going to change your mind.

Those photos are the first photos I've posted on the topic. I just got them off my friends camera a few days ago. The photos were taken in June of 2009.

If your familiar with the UK herp community you should recognise the name of Chris Newman. He spent 2 weeks in the area and his photos were probably the first to be circulated on RFUK.

They were breeding Egyptians 25 years ago... you didn't hear about it because they were part of the USSR. They did not join the EU until fairly recently.

I know at least one exists in Slovenia and one in Uzbekistan.

For those of you who were not following the posts about the photos of the Slovenian tortoise farms in the general tortoise discussion forum check them out.

As much as I would like to believe that they exist, so far all I have seen is basically the same photos of the same tortoise set ups. No specifics, no solid evidence that captive breeding tortoise farms exist in Slovenia.

So I put forth a challenge to TFO members. Show some physical evidence to back up the photos. Make me a believer.

Do they exist or don't they?

 

[Yvonne G]

In my opinion, they DO exist. I want to believe that they are what Ed says they are. If those pictures showed holding pens I'm pretty sure the pens and tortoises would be a lot dirtier than those pictures show.

 

[gummybearpoop]

I believe in Ed's pics.

Why?

Just because.
haha


But seriously, I know a few breeders in my great state who produce ridiculous amounts of tortoises but do not advertise or have websites. Why advertise if there is no need to. If they share pics, they tell me not to share them with others. Primarily for security reasons, which I understand.

We are lucky Ed is sharing those pics, regardless if we like/dislike what we see. Thank you Ed for sharing those pics.

We can question all we want, but may not get answers.

If we do get those answers, we will probably just have more questions....

 

[terryo]

I don't get this whole thread. Why would Ed post pictures that he got from a friend that weren't what they seemed to be? I'm sure Ed's been around long enough not to be fooled, and why would he want to fool anyone? Maybe I'm missing something here.

 

[TylerStewart]

I know a few breeders in my great state who produce ridiculous amounts of tortoises but do not advertise or have websites. Why advertise if there is no need to. If they share pics, they tell me not to share them with others. Primarily for security reasons, which I understand.

Smart men! I know most of them, and they don't want to mess with the headaches of retail sales. Can't say I blame them sometimes. We'd be rich if my wife was making any money helping people on the phone that call us to help them straighen out the problems their tortoises have (that they bought from other sources). Seems like she's never off the phone.

 

[Kirkie]

EJ,

You mention a farm in Uzbekistan, is this a true farm as in it retains a breeding population or is a continuation of the ranching practises? The importation of wild caught Horsfields tortoises was banned in the European Union in 2000, in a neat side step we began to see the arrival of "Captive Farmed" specimens. These young tortoises were obtained through a method called ranching. The collection of gravid, wild female Horsfields who were maintained in captivity until they laid their eggs or the simpler collection of eggs layed in the wild. The eggs were then incubated and "captive farmed" tortoises were born.

This is an extract of an article on the subjuect:

Ranching as a Method of Conservation of the Wild Population of Horsfield's Tortoise, Agrionemys horsfieldii
E. V. Bykova, V. G. Sorochinsky, A. V. Golenkevich, E. A. Peregontsev, I. N. Sorochinskaya, and G. Ya. Sorochinsky

"Since 1997, associates of Zoocomplex (Tashkent, Uzbekistan) implemented studies on hatching the Horsfield's tortoise on farms at commercial levels. The technology of collection and incubation of eggs, and the ranching of young tortoises, was mastered. Several methods were applied to obtain eggs from tortoises constantly kept in captivity, those temporarily kept in the nursery, and incubated eggs collected in the wild (R). According to CITES, R (ranching) is a method based on the collection of eggs, incubation and artificial hatching. Totally, 20,000 eggs were obtained. Some eggs from various ranges were measured and weighed. Differences in sizes and weight of eggs collected from areas with different natural conditions were recorded. Egg length varied from 36.1 to 56.5 mm. The survival rate of eggs constituted 75%. a positive correlation between body sizes of hatched tortoises with egg sizes was recorded. The size of hatched tortoises reached 25.2 to 48.6 mm; the weight was about 20 g. During seven months of rearing, 5% of hatched tortoises died (against 70 – 90% in the wild). Of 15,000 hatched tortoises, recorded were 29 twin pairs, of which 13 pairs were normal and 16 pairs were asymmetrical twins; four terato-twin abnormalities with varying levels of terato-duplication were recorded".


The article by Thomas and Sabine Vinke I linked to previously demonstrates the burocracy involved with reviewing the CITES status of a species. Horsfields Tortoise is awaiting review and I'm saddened that the conservation status of a species needs review not because of habitat loss, but because of exploitation for the pet trade.

An article on the species by David Lee and Katrina Smith, a conservation perspective, can be found here:

http://www.tortoise-protection-group.org.uk/site/172.asp


You mention Chris Newman, well known in the UK, but it should be pointed out that Mr Newman represents the reptile trade in the UK and his actions and statements are made foremost to protect repile importers and sellers. The thread linked to on RFUK, I could divide the opinions into trade and hobbyist with my eyes closed.

 

[GBtortoises]

In my haste I may not have been clear. A lot of people are asking me why I don't believe that this "farm" in Slovenia exists if there are photos of it.
It is not that I don't believe the physical existence of this facility or any others like it. What I am questioning is that if this facility is actually a captive breeding farm that has long term breeding groups producing offspring annually. Or is it and others like it simply holding facilities that are taking or receiving animals out of the wild, collecting eggs that the gravid females lay while and then selling off the adults (those that live).
Take a really good look at the photos and ask yourself these questions: Do those Sulcata that are packed almost shoulder to shoulder really socially interact in a normal way to facilitate breeding? Do the Redfoots shown on the barren ground, again crowded survive, breed and nest in those dry, barren conditions? Does the Hermann's enclosures with the little huts packed full of tortoises really live outdoors in those conditions year round? Do the piles of tortoises shown indoors in those small enclosures really exist 24/7/365 piled on top of each other in those boxes and live? All of these photos point to one thing and one thing only, there is not breeding going on here, except if by haphazard chance. These photos to me point to nothing more than wild caught egg collection and holding facilities. That's not farming, that's collecting.

I asked the person that posted the photos to prove the physical existance of the "farm" that these photos were supposedly taken on in order to get and verify a physical address in order to prove the existance of it as a legitimate farm, not just a holding facility. No address was produced, no proof has been produced that they are in fact a responsible captive breeding farm and producing offspring annually from breeding stock that is not replaced year after year but is maintained of years at the facility. Supposedly the photo poster could not reveal his source out of "respect" for that source. What's to hide if it's a legitimate operation? The source's hidden identity is of little relevance in this anyway since I know who it is.

Again, my point from the start was to verify if this supposed captive breeding farm in Slovenia is just that, a captive breeding farm or just a collection/holding facility. So far there is no evidence that it is what is says. Photos are great, but they prove nothing except to show a large number of tortoises in pens. They don't show anything else. Records and documentation of an operation legitimize it, not just photos.

There are import/export holding facilities like those in the photos all over the world, there have been for decades. There is no disputing that they exist.

Kirkie has linked some excellent reading on the subject and lists some valid information.

 

[-EJ]

I only know what friends have reported to me. On the Russians... it could be ranched as you say but I see nothing wrong with this either if it is done properly. The friend that provided the photos for the Slovenian farm said he was going to visit the other. When he does I'm hoping he will provide some photos of that.

They have been doing this with Ball pythons for at least 10 years now.

Also... I'm a herper first and a tortoise keeper second. I'm very much involved in the pet trade... that doesn't mean I'm anti conservation.

EJ,

You mention a farm in Uzbekistan, is this a true farm as in it retains a breeding population or is a continuation of the ranching practises? The importation of wild caught Horsfields tortoises was banned in the European Union in 2000, in a neat side step we began to see the arrival of "Captive Farmed" specimens. These young tortoises were obtained through a method called ranching. The collection of gravid, wild female Horsfields who were maintained in captivity until they laid their eggs or the simpler collection of eggs layed in the wild. The eggs were then incubated and "captive farmed" tortoises were born.

This is an extract of an article on the subjuect:

Ranching as a Method of Conservation of the Wild Population of Horsfield's Tortoise, Agrionemys horsfieldii
E. V. Bykova, V. G. Sorochinsky, A. V. Golenkevich, E. A. Peregontsev, I. N. Sorochinskaya, and G. Ya. Sorochinsky

"Since 1997, associates of Zoocomplex (Tashkent, Uzbekistan) implemented studies on hatching the Horsfield's tortoise on farms at commercial levels. The technology of collection and incubation of eggs, and the ranching of young tortoises, was mastered. Several methods were applied to obtain eggs from tortoises constantly kept in captivity, those temporarily kept in the nursery, and incubated eggs collected in the wild (R). According to CITES, R (ranching) is a method based on the collection of eggs, incubation and artificial hatching. Totally, 20,000 eggs were obtained. Some eggs from various ranges were measured and weighed. Differences in sizes and weight of eggs collected from areas with different natural conditions were recorded. Egg length varied from 36.1 to 56.5 mm. The survival rate of eggs constituted 75%. a positive correlation between body sizes of hatched tortoises with egg sizes was recorded. The size of hatched tortoises reached 25.2 to 48.6 mm; the weight was about 20 g. During seven months of rearing, 5% of hatched tortoises died (against 70 – 90% in the wild). Of 15,000 hatched tortoises, recorded were 29 twin pairs, of which 13 pairs were normal and 16 pairs were asymmetrical twins; four terato-twin abnormalities with varying levels of terato-duplication were recorded".


The article by Thomas and Sabine Vinke I linked to previously demonstrates the burocracy involved with reviewing the CITES status of a species. Horsfields Tortoise is awaiting review and I'm saddened that the conservation status of a species needs review not because of habitat loss, but because of exploitation for the pet trade.

An article on the species by David Lee and Katrina Smith, a conservation perspective, can be found here:

http://www.tortoise-protection-group.org.uk/site/172.asp


You mention Chris Newman, well known in the UK, but it should be pointed out that Mr Newman represents the reptile trade in the UK and his actions and statements are made foremost to protect repile importers and sellers. The thread linked to on RFUK, I could divide the opinions into trade and hobbyist with my eyes closed.

---

Do you really think those Egyptians, Redfoots, Sulcata, Stars... are wild caught?

Those animals were collected over many years... and not out of the wild.

Have you kept Sulcata and/or Redfoots... they will breed under those conditions.

Also... while I didn't post the photos of them... there are heated sheds.

Again... there are adults... eggs... babies... yearlings... what kind of 'proof' are you looking for? Also, again... I don't think you're going to satisfied with any kind of evidence.

Those articles, while interesting, have an agenda. They are anti pet trade.

Why would providing an address offer any kind of proof????????

In my haste I may not have been clear. A lot of people are asking me why I don't believe that this "farm" in Slovenia exists if there are photos of it.
It is not that I don't believe the physical existence of this facility or any others like it. What I am questioning is that if this facility is actually a captive breeding farm that has long term breeding groups producing offspring annually. Or is it and others like it simply holding facilities that are taking or receiving animals out of the wild, collecting eggs that the gravid females lay while and then selling off the adults (those that live).
Take a really good look at the photos and ask yourself these questions: Do those Sulcata that are packed almost shoulder to shoulder really socially interact in a normal way to facilitate breeding? Do the Redfoots shown on the barren ground, again crowded survive, breed and nest in those dry, barren conditions? Does the Hermann's enclosures with the little huts packed full of tortoises really live outdoors in those conditions year round? Do the piles of tortoises shown indoors in those small enclosures really exist 24/7/365 piled on top of each other in those boxes and live? All of these photos point to one thing and one thing only, there is not breeding going on here, except if by haphazard chance. These photos to me point to nothing more than wild caught egg collection and holding facilities. That's not farming, that's collecting.

I asked the person that posted the photos to prove the physical existance of the "farm" that these photos were supposedly taken on in order to get and verify a physical address in order to prove the existance of it as a legitimate farm, not just a holding facility. No address was produced, no proof has been produced that they are in fact a responsible captive breeding farm and producing offspring annually from breeding stock that is not replaced year after year but is maintained of years at the facility. Supposedly the photo poster could not reveal his source out of "respect" for that source. What's to hide if it's a legitimate operation? The source's hidden identity is of little relevance in this anyway since I know who it is.

Again, my point from the start was to verify if this supposed captive breeding farm in Slovenia is just that, a captive breeding farm or just a collection/holding facility. So far there is no evidence that it is what is says. Photos are great, but they prove nothing except to show a large number of tortoises in pens. They don't show anything else. Records and documentation of an operation legitimize it, not just photos.

There are import/export holding facilities like those in the photos all over the world, there have been for decades. There is no disputing that they exist.

Kirkie has linked some excellent reading on the subject and lists some valid information.

 

[Tom]

I support what your saying, this place is REAL but its not natural, these guys were ripped from nature ... your not the only one with this thought, check out the tortoise trust article:

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/imports.html

"The numbers being cited are also cause for grave concern. One well-known dealer stated that he could easily obtain “5,000 tortoises a year with certificates”. There is, in our opinion, absolutely no way that this quantity could possibly be bred commercially within Europe. We find it far more interesting that the two countries most frequently involved, Lebanon and Slovenia, are better known for the ready availability of fraudulent CITES documentation than they are for genuine captive-breeding expertise! "

---

check out the other pictures

http://jacquiscaptivebredtortoises.com/the_pet_trade_and_imported_tortoises

---

There is a single sulcata breeder here in the US that produces around 10,000 babies every year. Most of them are sold over seas to Asian countries. I don't want to know what for. I don't have names or scientific citations, but this was told to me by a guy who was in the reptile importation business for longer than I've been alive and was agreed upon by other, very astute reptile professionals attending the conversation. Just throwing that little tid-bit out there. 5000 in all of Europe doesn't seem impossible to me.