Russians

[Tom]

Hi all. I need some advice from those more experienced than me. I've had Russians in years past, but housed them primarily indoors, with outdoor enclosures for fair weather. I've also been studying everything I can find about them for the last two or three years now, but we now how that goes, from our sulcata experience.

My project: I'm setting up some large outdoor pens with the intention of having several Russian breeding colonies. There will be plenty of room to mix and match and separate or isolate individual "combatants". I intend to use all backyard bred captive stock and I am not in a rush. The pens will be completely enclosed with welded wire on a wooden frame and around 13' wide x28' long x8' high.  They will be planted with various broadleaf weeds and Testudo seed mixes. I also grow cactus, grape leaves, African hibiscus, mulberry leaves and a whole host of other weeds that occur naturally. Each enclosure will have a 4x8' planter box/shade table too for them to get under in warmer weather. And a few small bushes and logs or rocks here and there. I live in the Santa Clarita area of Los Angeles. It could be classified as high desert. We have summer days with highs in the 100s and nights in the mid 60s. Winter days are usually in the 60s with occasional cold days, like today, that barely get to 50. Winter nights are usually in the 30s, only occasionally dropping into the 20's.

On to my question: In the last couple of years I have been building and experimenting with various underground tortoise boxes for my other species. All my older tortoises live outside 24/7, but I have heated thermostatically controlled shelters that I lock them in at night after they all retire. Here is an example of one of my underground shelters: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-28662.html

The underground shelters stay cool in the summer and warm in the winter. It can't collapse or flood and I have access to the tortoises anytime I want. I intend to do something similar with the russians, but I am worried about our wildly fluctuating inconsistent temps here in Southern CA. In summer they can go underground when it gets too hot. I also run sprinklers and misters in really hot weather. What I am worried about is the warm winter spells we occasionally get. We had about six weeks in 2011 before and after Christmas of highs in the 80s. This plays havoc with reptiles that are supposed to be hibernating. It gets cold here, but not consistently for the duration of winter. I am worried that they will go to ground to hibernate as they should in the fall, and then a warm winter spell will cause them to come up and possibly start grazing. When the cold returns And they go back underground, I don't want them to have a bunch of food in their gut. The temps in my underground burrows hover around 80 all summer long, and around 50 all winter long. Very consistent.

Finally the question: What to do about winter? With my fluctuating above ground temps will they figure out what to do and be okay? Should I put them in a temp controlled fridge over winter so they have the perfect hibernation temps? Some people have suggested that 50 is too warm for them to properly hibernate. Is 50 okay underground in a somewhat "natural"enclosure? We will sometimes have a week or two straight where night temps are in the 20's and day temps barely reach 50 under cold ominous skies, but then we have other winter weeks where highs are in the 70's, sunny and gorgeous for weeks in a row.

Any insight is welcome. I really don't want to learn what to do through trial and error. I am not used to housing non-tropical species outside here.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Lol. Look at me helping you! I remember the mild winters down there where we'd be excited for the strange tube ice that would come out of a frozen hose once every couple of years.
I would go for the stability of a fridge. This will allow you to ensure the gut tracks are clear as well as allowing you to control the environment. You are correct in being concerned about surfacing early and grazing, only to go back down with an enclosed compost pile in a shell.

 

[Yvonne G]

If you get very much rain in the winter, then the fridge is a good idea. If a Russian tortoise gets wet while hibernating, he will most likely die.

 

[Tom]

It rains a few times during winter, but it will be dry in their boxes. We get less rain here than almost anywhere in the country.

I've talked about this with a lot of people. I just don't feel like I have gotten a definitive answer. Obviously a fridge is the safe bet. No risk. Indoors. Completely controlled. But it seems most people near here just leave them out and they seem to do just fine. That is, unless I'm just not hearing the horror stories.

 

[Jordan67]

They will be some lucky tortoises! Unfortunately I'm too inexperienced to help with this matter. Good luck!

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I wish I had answers. Maybe someday.

I can think of a handful of people out here in the Inland Empire and Orange/Riverside Counties that have Russians who just simply roam their backyards. Year after year their tortoises disappear and reappear with no issues. This leads me to believe that the tortoises figure out how to do things on their own.
We already know that hibernation isn't mandatory for successful breeding. But the temporary cool downs would still be better than a perpetual summer, right?

Tom, what if your mr. russian goes down into your 50F box late November. Then the 80F Christmas weather hits so he comes out. He grazes on only the naturally growing greens in his pen. Then 4 days later, temps drop so he ventures back into the box with the greens in his belly. I wonder, would having weeds in the belly be easier on him than if he had been fed store bought greens/processed pellets when he came up? Then again, when he surfaces, what if he doesn't go into eating right away? When he does finally eat do we know that he'll instantly begin chomping down or will it be lightly grazing? Could that make a difference in the belly if he went back down?

OR

What if in just another couple of days the temperature rises again so mr. russian re-surfaces. Having the food in belly wont be an issue then because he would right back up and grazing again.

This last point is what keeps going through my mind.....

So far my plan is this: I'm going to let my Russian do "his thing" this fall and winter (since I got him this winter and kept him warm) and just take notes, a lot of notes!
I may figure out something as I have details of his activity written down. I may learn nothing new.

I may change my plan but I'm hoping to understand more about keeping a russian outdoors in so cal, eventually.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

I allow my russians to cool down as part of their life cycle in the wild. Though I don't provided intense heat for estivation.

 

[kanalomele]

Hi Tom,
I know we have discussed this a couple of times. I would say that your priority would be the stability of the breeding colony. With the breeding aspect being the primary concern. I do know that russians can successfully reproduce without the winter brumating. However i find the "spring fever" and mating drive to be greatly increased in my group when they wake up. Here i am referring to the incidence of females being willing to accept my guy without drama. My male could take care of business no matter what i think. The benefit to me is a far more peaceful season overall. I think i would also encourage you to use the refrigeration. There is no doubt they can live outside year round where you are. But i would take advantage of the controlled brumation and vigorous sex drive of a proper cold rest. What you will probably find with this sassy species is that sombody will dig themselves in beyond all hope of finding them, (happens all the time around here)and you will have some one to do a comparison with.

---

Additionally, we dont have a consistently below 50 season around here either. Its very typical for it to be below that for a few weeks at a time but then we will have a break and will be in the 50+range for awhile. Mine dig in outside and generally stay there until the ground warms up consistently. I let them dig themselves in. This also gives them some solitary time without the drama that the others bring. This is why i recommended multiple small underground versions of your burrows. They can move around until they find a spot they like, with other torts they like, or dig their own.

 

[Tom]

Such good info. Thanks all for sharing your thoughts.

Heather, the food in the belly thing is a big concern, but as you well know, we have the occasional winter "cold" spell for a week or two, but then its pretty warm again. If they were down with food in their gut in a fridge for 3 months, I think it would be a problem. But if they are only down for a week or two with a small amount of weeds, and then it warms back up and is sunny and 75 again, I think it might be okay... I agree with your thought process here.

kanalomele, I think you are right. One way or another both methods will be tested and then I'll be able to compare. About the box thing: I intend to build several types of shelters. The main boxes will be about two feet square for each trio or quad of tortoises. But with so many other options, I wonder how much they will even use the boxes...

Its going to be a fun adventure...

 

[kanalomele]

Looking forward to sharing in the adventure with you my friend! Regarding the food in the belly. I can tell you that for me i notice a change in my groups eating habits a couple weeks before going down. This is the only time i ever see them eating dryer grass, leaves and straw. Perhaps to clean out their gut before sleeping?? After so many years i can usually tell when they are going down for the season. Their eating changes and they slow way down in the amount of time they spend roaming around. I take it upon myself to give everyone a week of every other day soaking in warm water. You want them well hydrated with an empty gut for brumation, just like most other brumating species. So far so good for me.

 

[lynnedit]

I had a variety of experiences this winter.
I did hibernate my male in an unused wine cooler in our basement, because it was empty
In a plastic box with ventilation holes, in soil with some slightly moist sphagnum moss on top. He had gone down for a week or so and had not eaten for a month (which is why I decided to hibernate him). He had been soaked every few days.
This worked extremely well because the wine cooler has a built in digital thermometer, so I started him at about 55f and gradually reduced the temp over a week or so to 43-45f, where he stayed for 6 weeks. He lost a total of 10g during this time. (I opened the door every 1-2days).

I think your instinct, Tom, to let the tortoises make their own way (with several available hides, protected from the rain) is a good way to start, in California. In your area, they can burrow down to avoid the cold temps, because those colder temps don't last weeks and weeks.
Russians just seem to thrive when allowed to go their own way, within the parameters of a safe enclosure with choices for burrowing.

 

[68merc]

but it will be dry in their boxes.

Tom, I'm sure you know they dig in for winter. They ate not like a CDT or a Sully who both dig a borrow. My Russians all make use of their hides all spring/summer. I have one hide that is made so blocks underground, they love that one but when the cold hits they dig into the dirt like a box turtle would. So, the box makes no difference the way I read it.

I recall seeing pictures of your place, there is a hill or grade? I think I'd like that to ensure runoff and to keep the ground dry for the winter...

 

[Tom]

To be a little more specific, my boxes will be 24" square. I will sink them about 20" into the ground with just the lid above ground. The bottom of the box will be 1x2" welded wire with 8" of dirt on it. So the bottom of the box will be 20" underground with 8" of dirt, and then the door opening will be about 6" tall. There will be a short tunnel reaching the last 12" to the surface and the hole going into the ground at the mouth of the tunnel will have a rain cover. There is a slight slope and the opening and tunnel will point down hill so the rain runs away from it. This strategy has worked perfectly for keeping my under ground boxes dry every time here.

The ground in the whole enclosure will be digable dirt and the outer perimeter walls have wire extending 18" into the ground. I'm really curious to see if they prefer to use my man made house, or just dig into the dirt on their own. I intend to "train" them to use the house by putting them in there every night after dark for a while.

The other shelters will all be above ground with dirt floors and over head shade. Plus I will have some logs and large rocks for them to hide behind and plants to hide under and amongst. I'll post pics as it comes along.

 

[lynnedit]

Maybe it is a regional/weather thing, but my tortoises do seek out the protected hides with dirt floors (Tom, your floors will be nice and deep), unless the weather is dry and >55f. Then they might spend overnight under a Rosemary, for example.
So in the cooler months, they like a drier, more protected spot. They like the doors to be 'just' large enough, and the roofs to be low. (At least I think they like this, they haven't actually said ).

 

[Tortoise]

I know in the UK a friend has trouble hibernating Russians, she mentioned others having similar problems too with the Russians at times.Even at normal cold hibernation temps some of them still wouldn't sleep presumably needing colder temps yet.
This was in part due to not using a fridge and that they are just more active in cooler temps than the other hibernators that she has - Lots of Hermanns, Greeks etc.

I have just got 2 trios here in Canada and I plan on using a fridge -although my groups hadn't been hibernated with previous owner.
Its the only way for me to keep accurate temps as we have a cold room in the basement but it gets dangerously cold-near freezing sometimes.

I think if your temps did rise they would be up and about for sure.

I'm not very experienced with hibernating anything but Hermanns thus far but thinking the fridge is the safest option for me.My problem is getting too cold as yours is the opposite.

Your pens sound fantastic by the way-can't wait to see them and some tortoises in there too when the right ones come along.

Best of luck

 

[mctlong]

How exciting! If you thought your sullies had lots of personality, just wait till you get those Russian breeding colonies going!

I'm curious, why will you be using backyard bred stock for breeding when there are so many WCs available on the market? I'd think there'd be more genetic variability in the WC stock.

I'm not too far from you, in the SF Valley. Our temps are a little warmer than yours since we're at a lower elevation (i.e. winter nights generally in the 50s with lows never reaching below 30, HOT summers). I keep my Russian out year round. I've never had any trouble with the temps being too high in the summer (despite the occasional 105+ days). These guys are smarter than some other tort species and great at regulating their own temps when they have the resources available to them. Lot of shade, goes without saying. Keep lots and lots of water on hand and they'll use it well. I love the idea of your underground bunker as a means of escaping the heat. I can't speak so much for the cold because our temps don't drop as low as yours do. I hope, with your cooler temps, you have better luck than we do hibernating. We've essentially given up and provide heat when temps drop below 50. We don't breed Russians, so hibernation is not essential for us.

They do like to dig, so if your soil is loose and fluffy, they'll do lots of digging. If its more compact, they'll probably spend more time in the bunker.

The perimeter wall will be 18" into the ground and then stop? Will there be anything deeper? If you stop at 18", I'd recommend some major soil compaction at the base of your wall. If they can dig deeper, they will. They're like little moles, but I've noticed that they will stop when they hit a hardpan of compact soil. As a matter of fact, when I visited your ranch and saw your sullys' massive tunnel, I remember being impressed that they were digging through such compacted dirt. Russians generally would not dig through hard, compacted soil like that. Of course, your sullies are much, much stronger than Russians.

Good luck and keep us posted. I expect lots and lots of pics!!!!

 

[lynnedit]

Shelly, I enjoyed your observations!

 

[Tom]

I'm curious, why will you be using backyard bred stock for breeding when there are so many WCs available on the market? I'd think there'd be more genetic variability in the WC stock.

I'm planning on getting babies from several unrelated sources. This should give me the same level of genetic variability as W/Cs.


I like the backyard bred stock for two main reasons:
1. Disease potential. Russians can, and frequently do, carry all sorts of nasties. They are known to be one of the worst, if not THE worst. The typical chain store ones are probably the worst of the worst. Using captive bred only, out of long term captives from people who only have the one species should, in theory anyway, reduce my disease risk.

2. I wanna raise them MY way. Fed my way. Soaked my way. Housed my way. This is all part of the learning process for me. This is a long term fun project for me. I'm not looking to start generating babies and income from this ASAP. I'm looking for enjoyment, education, satisfaction, and eventually, I think it would be neat to reduce the need for wild caught ones. I've got no problem with some W/C ones coming in, I'd just like to see that number much lower because healthy, well started, well acclimated CBs are available instead.

I love Russians. I think they are a great starter tortoise, and it will bring me joy to be able to offer them to people who want to get into tortoises. I intend to do hermanni too at some point. Then platynota, and eventually Galops.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Because we all know galops are a good starter tortoise! LOL

 

[SmileyKylie623]

This makes me excited!! I want to add another Russian or two into my family someday, after I know if Vygo is truly a him or not, with the hopes of breeding some babies of my own. I might just have to buy from you someday Tom! I definitely have to agree that we need more captive bred Russians. They can be hard to find! Also, I personally like knowing my animal's history and what their parents look like so that I can have an idea of what they will be like. I think this is another benefit to captive breeding with tortoises.

Can't wait to see pictures of your set up and creatures!