Question

[pacific chelonians]

I was doing some reading on old forum posts and found this form about the endangered species act I have linked it below and copied and paste it I was wondering if this is true or false I was unaware that this was legal not that I am ever going to partake just a curious question

Why the Florida sales only turtles?

Ive seen a few species of turtles offered for sale to FL residents only. Im curious as to why this is. The endangered US natives I can sort of see due to using it as a cover for wild collection, but for some of the other species Ive seen listed like this they arent US natives. They are captive br...

www.turtleforum.com

What the ESA law can be translated to is this --- The animals in question that are listed as Threatened or Endangered cannot be sent over state lines for commercial purposes with a transaction of money. You can however travel from your home state and come to said state ( lets say Florida for the EXPO which is thankfully only 11 months away!) and buy this animal(s) and take it(them) back to your home state without the intent to resell. This cannot be a pre- arranged purchase. In other words, you cannot call someone in Florida, from California and say " hey, make sure those hamiltoni are eating because I am on my way to buy them from you at the EXPO next week and hand you 1000 US dollars for three of them. That would be a no no. But you can however, come to Florida, without making prior arrangements with the seller/breeder, and buy these turtles. Money is only changing hands in the state where the turtles are. Bringing them back to your home state is within ESA guidelines as long as you do not plan to sell them.

You can also apply for a CBW ( captive bred wildlife permit ) for ESA species which will allow you to buy them from whomever you please in the United States. Hopefully the person offering ESA animals will be willing to help you with this process. If they are not, I would possibly steer clear because their animals may have a questionable paper trail.

As our previous poster "Joel" states, C.I.T.E.S. only comes in to play when animals are going in or out of countries= International... ~

<-- that little guy represents all the people looking at hamiltoni at the EXPO in Daytona that were not sure what to do...

 

[KarenSoCal]

@Pastel Tortie

Any insight on this?

 

[Tom]

I was doing some reading on old forum posts and found this form about the endangered species act I have linked it below and copied and paste it I was wondering if this is true or false I was unaware that this was legal not that I am ever going to partake just a curious question

Why the Florida sales only turtles?

Ive seen a few species of turtles offered for sale to FL residents only. Im curious as to why this is. The endangered US natives I can sort of see due to using it as a cover for wild collection, but for some of the other species Ive seen listed like this they arent US natives. They are captive br...

www.turtleforum.com

What the ESA law can be translated to is this --- The animals in question that are listed as Threatened or Endangered cannot be sent over state lines for commercial purposes with a transaction of money. You can however travel from your home state and come to said state ( lets say Florida for the EXPO which is thankfully only 11 months away!) and buy this animal(s) and take it(them) back to your home state without the intent to resell. This cannot be a pre- arranged purchase. In other words, you cannot call someone in Florida, from California and say " hey, make sure those hamiltoni are eating because I am on my way to buy them from you at the EXPO next week and hand you 1000 US dollars for three of them. That would be a no no. But you can however, come to Florida, without making prior arrangements with the seller/breeder, and buy these turtles. Money is only changing hands in the state where the turtles are. Bringing them back to your home state is within ESA guidelines as long as you do not plan to sell them.

You can also apply for a CBW ( captive bred wildlife permit ) for ESA species which will allow you to buy them from whomever you please in the United States. Hopefully the person offering ESA animals will be willing to help you with this process. If they are not, I would possibly steer clear because their animals may have a questionable paper trail.

As our previous poster "Joel" states, C.I.T.E.S. only comes in to play when animals are going in or out of countries= International... ~

<-- that little guy represents all the people looking at hamiltoni at the EXPO in Daytona that were not sure what to do...

Wind4travel is wrong. You cannot go out of state, buy these listed animals and bring them back with you to your home state. That would be crossing state lines with "commerce" involved. You would need a CBW permit for the buyer and for the seller, both with that species specifically listed on each person's CBW permit.

Put as simply as possible: The few species covered by these absurd, counter-productive, and ridiculous laws cannot be sold across state lines. They can be given away for free across state lines, they can be given to other people across state lines on breeder loans, or they can be sold in your own home state to other legal residents of your own home state. You can also move your own animals that are legally in your possession with you, if you move to another state. There just can't be any "commerce" associated with these animals moving across state lines. I can give my friend in another state as many radiata babies as I want, but I can't sell him any, or trade them for some other tangible goods.

And they aren't messing around with this one. They are currently trying to bust people on this that are NOT even breaking the law. Its not worth it to try to get around this law. Just do not try to buy or sell them across state lines, and this includes going to another state to buy them and bring them home. The thread you linked is from 2008. I'll bet Wind4travel has since learned that he/she was wrong on this one. One way or another...

Oh! And by the way, our "government leaders" have now decided that they won't be granting or renewing any CBW permits to private individuals any more. Only genuine, accredited, AZA facilities can get them now. Way to go criminal overlords. You've just attempted to doom a bunch of endangered species to extinction by keeping them out of competent private hands. Another fine example of government corruption and failure. So if someone isn't breeding that species that you'd like to work with in your own home state, a species you'd like to devote your time, energy, and resources toward, tough luck for you buddy. You get nothing. And the endangered species in question doesn't get some of the help it so badly needs, unless someone out of state wants to give them to you for free.

 

[ZenHerper]

...or you want to move...

And once again, a single useless species is solely responsible for the loss of many valuable others.

While we have an administration with half an inclination to clear out graft appointees and appointing actually qualified scientists, it behooves us to petition for change. Get your views on the record with all levels of government.

 

[Pastel Tortie]

What the ESA law can be translated to is this --- The animals in question that are listed as Threatened or Endangered cannot be sent over state lines for commercial purposes with a transaction of money. You can however travel from your home state and come to said state ( lets say Florida for the EXPO which is thankfully only 11 months away!) and buy this animal(s) and take it(them) back to your home state without the intent to resell. This cannot be a pre- arranged purchase. In other words, you cannot call someone in Florida, from California and say " hey, make sure those hamiltoni are eating because I am on my way to buy them from you at the EXPO next week and hand you 1000 US dollars for three of them. That would be a no no. But you can however, come to Florida, without making prior arrangements with the seller/breeder, and buy these turtles. Money is only changing hands in the state where the turtles are. Bringing them back to your home state is within ESA guidelines as long as you do not plan to sell them.

No vendor at the National Reptile Breeders Expo in Daytona Beach, FL will sell any of those species (that aren't allowed to cross state lines) to anyone without a valid Florida driver's license.

And if they get any inkling that the Florida resident wanting to purchase those species intends to gift them to someone out of state, they won't do it.

The stakes are way too high. The industry is skittish, not stupid.

 

[pacific chelonians]

Thank you for all your help I really appreciate it

 

[TeamZissou]

Wind4travel is wrong. You cannot go out of state, buy these listed animals and bring them back with you to your home state. That would be crossing state lines with "commerce" involved. You would need a CBW permit for the buyer and for the seller, both with that species specifically listed on each person's CBW permit.

Put as simply as possible: The few species covered by these absurd, counter-productive, and ridiculous laws cannot be sold across state lines. They can be given away for free across state lines, they can be given to other people across state lines on breeder loans, or they can be sold in your own home state to other legal residents of your own home state. You can also move your own animals that are legally in your possession with you, if you move to another state. There just can't be any "commerce" associated with these animals moving across state lines. I can give my friend in another state as many radiata babies as I want, but I can't sell him any, or trade them for some other tangible goods.

And they aren't messing around with this one. They are currently trying to bust people on this that are NOT even breaking the law. Its not worth it to try to get around this law. Just do not try to buy or sell them across state lines, and this includes going to another state to buy them and bring them home. The thread you linked is from 2008. I'll bet Wind4travel has since learned that he/she was wrong on this one. One way or another...

Oh! And by the way, our "government leaders" have now decided that they won't be granting or renewing any CBW permits to private individuals any more. Only genuine, accredited, AZA facilities can get them now. Way to go criminal overlords. You've just attempted to doom a bunch of endangered species to extinction by keeping them out of competent private hands. Another fine example of government corruption and failure. So if someone isn't breeding that species that you'd like to work with in your own home state, a species you'd like to devote your time, energy, and resources toward, tough luck for you buddy. You get nothing. And the endangered species in question doesn't get some of the help it so badly needs, unless someone out of state wants to give them to you for free.

What's also messed up about not issuing CBW permits is that it effectively isolates a population of whatever species to within that state. I read in another thread that a friend of Bill Z had a group of 40(!) adult radiata and was denied a CBW permit because he did not have enough genetic diversity in his group. I have to believe that obtaining more genetic diversity in such a group is a lot tougher without a CBW permit.

 

[ZenHerper]

What's also messed up about not issuing CBW permits is that it effectively isolates a population of whatever species to within that state. I read in another thread that a friend of Bill Z had a group of 40(!) adult radiata and was denied a CBW permit because he did not have enough genetic diversity in his group. I have to believe that obtaining more genetic diversity in such a group is a lot tougher without a CBW permit.

This is where anti-science bias in government officials meet generic fiscal incompetence.

I mean, issue the permits! Charge whatever you want! People with genuine concern for the animals and their potential reintroduction to the wild will. Buy. Them.

It's all fun and games controlling genetic diversity until your own genome collapses. Margaret Atwood had our culture dead-to-rights.

 

[Tom]

What's also messed up about not issuing CBW permits is that it effectively isolates a population of whatever species to within that state. I read in another thread that a friend of Bill Z had a group of 40(!) adult radiata and was denied a CBW permit because he did not have enough genetic diversity in his group. I have to believe that obtaining more genetic diversity in such a group is a lot tougher without a CBW permit.

You are trying to apply logic and common sense to this issue. This will fail.

This policy, and the one man implementing it, is all about emotions and animal rights. The man is clearly an animal rights sympathizer, or an outright animal rights operative that some how managed to move up the ranks and now holds this power over every single person in the USA. We have no recourse and cannot challenge or dispute this one man's absurd delusions in any way. This is pure dictatorship.

This isn't right, and this isn't freedom. Further, this doesn't help the species in question. It hurts them.

 

[pacific chelonians]

A few months ago I read some thing on a forum post on Fauna classifieds about the whole system being re-thought I have no clue whether this is accurate or not but I have attached a screenshot I could not find a link to the forum post

 

[Tom]

A few months ago I read some thing on a forum post on Fauna classifieds about the whole system being re-thought I have no clue whether this is accurate or not but I have attached a screenshot I could not find a link to the forum post

That is all accurate.

 

[pacific chelonians]

So just to clarify that would mean that every animal that is currently needed a CBW to go between states would now just be able to transfer between states once that bill passes if that is not the case let me know but that’s my understanding

 

[Tom]

So just to clarify that would mean that every animal that is currently needed a CBW to go between states would now just be able to transfer between states once that bill passes if that is not the case let me know but that’s my understanding

That is also my understanding, but that bill will never pass. "They" won't let it. They don't want us to have freedom. They aren't interested in what we want and want to do. I've seen many things like this come and go. They never let up. They continually press for more control and more restriction. Look at the 4" rule, falconry laws, all the cities banning certain reptiles, all the states banning certain reptiles, pit bull bans, fishing and hunting laws and technicalities... Look at the Migratory Bird Act. So much non-sense is deemed kosher under that one. No captive breeding, no native species, no commercial use (my business), and it pertains to any native species, even the ones that DON'T migrate.

Its all government over reach and restriction of freedoms under penalty of force. If you don't comply with all their made-up, counterproductive, non-sense, guys with badges and guns will come take your stuff, imprison you, or kill you.

 

[TeamZissou]

Does the ESA have an effect of deterring smuggling of poached animals into the country? If so, this would be the only positive effect of the law that I could see as it relates to tortoises. It would be a bummer if they removed it and suddenly more ploughshares started being removed from the wild, for example. Seems like they could spend their effort on preventing poached animals coming in.

The permitting process for tortoises would be fine if they just gave them out like they (apparently) used to about 10 years ago. That way, they would be able to at least track the movements of all the animals. Bill has said that they're quite understaffed to make such a thing happen. Plus, as you said, it would defy logic.

 

[pacific chelonians]

Are they hiring

 

[pacific chelonians]

Lol

 

[Yvonne G]

I took the original question to mean turtles/tortoises not necessarily requiring paperwork, like box turtles, for instance. I think New Jersey doesn't allow certain species, but you can buy them in another state that does allow them and bring them home.?????

 

[Tom]

Does the ESA have an effect of deterring smuggling of poached animals into the country? If so, this would be the only positive effect of the law that I could see as it relates to tortoises. It would be a bummer if they removed it and suddenly more ploughshares started being removed from the wild, for example. Seems like they could spend their effort on preventing poached animals coming in.

The permitting process for tortoises would be fine if they just gave them out like they (apparently) used to about 10 years ago. That way, they would be able to at least track the movements of all the animals. Bill has said that they're quite understaffed to make such a thing happen. Plus, as you said, it would defy logic.

The ESA is an American law only pertaining to Americans in America, and its supposed to only pertain to endangered American animals. CITIES is the International law that prevents smuggling of endangered animals around the rest of the world.

We all want wild animals in every country protected from poaching, habitat destruction and over collection, but this has nothing to do with moving CB animals in America from one state to another. This is why there needs to be a legal and simple way to move LEGAL captive bred animals in our own country as well as internationally.

 

[ZenHerper]

I took the original question to mean turtles/tortoises not necessarily requiring paperwork, like box turtles, for instance. I think New Jersey doesn't allow certain species, but you can buy them in another state that does allow them and bring them home.?????

New Jersey has weird turtle laws because of a 1970s Health Dept spin about salmonella (which is contracted mostly from food, then and now). The Wildlife Dept is in charge of enforcing. This law says that turtles/tortoises may not be sold within the state. So NJ residents who want these types of reptiles have to source them elsewhere. @HermanniChris cannot sell me one of his well-cared for CBs, but Tortoise Town can ship sickly, wrongly-identified, wild-collected animals in-and-out of the state all day long.

There are some species that may not be kept (bog turtles and any ESAs without a CBW - yep, you'd have to move), but most can. You have to have the standard $10/year wildlife permit. The application is straightforward, requiring a sales receipt/transfer declaration of said animal, knowledge of a veterinary office that sees exotics, and a description of how the animal is to be housed and cared for. Eastern painted turtles and common snappers don't need permits (but don't collect them from the wild! - all wildlife poaching is prohibited).

Chris kindly keeps his summary up to date here for anyone needing the NJ lowdown:

NJ TURTLE LAWS | GardenStateTortoise

www.gardenstatetortoise.com

Contact the Wildlife office with specific questions - they have done a very good job of making things work as well and fairly as possible.

**********************

My political analysis is that entities like TT essentially ruin everything for everyone else...while "protection" laws are enacted to ostensibly help animals kept and transacted under poor conditions, the impulse to take enforcement to logical extremes damages genuine efforts to enjoy and support species survival.

Of course, women and people of color are no strangers to the harm of Patronizing Logical Extremes. The U.S. Supreme Court is now poised to damage generations.

Are we helpless? Only in a Learned Helplessness sort of way. Read. Study. Discuss. Vote. Then hold politicians responsible for their appointments and choices. Watch out for legal changes...comment on proposed laws and by-laws. Make the powers-that-be know you by name.

 

[pacific chelonians]

You are allowed to own bog turtles in any state I thought you couldn’t own Those