US Fish and Wildlife Services

deadheadvet

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For those that raise, breed, promote conservation of endangered species or for the matter, any tortoise keeper. We will be looking for assistance on the enclosed matter.
It has been brought to our attention over the past 8-12 months, that no new CBW Permit has been issued by USFWS for endangered tortoises i.e. Galapagos, Radiated Tortoises. The branch chief of the permit process name is Timothy Van Norman. He seems to feel that only zoos and AZA certified facilities should be able to transfer these listed species across state line. The purpose of the permit was to allow creation of genetic diversity by shipping said animals across state lines. The permit was meant to be a necessity if compensation of the transaction took place. The cost of the permit is 200$. By stopping all permits, USFWS has kept tax payers money with no intention of issued the requested permit. I have enclosed a copy of the letter I sent to Senator Thom Tillis of North Carolina. I would advise those interested in participating, to use the enclosed letter and change anything germain to your state senator. This is bureaucratic nonsense that should not continue. Thanks for everyone's time.
Evan aka deadheadvet
Mr. Tillis:
It is my understanding that you are on the subcommittee of Fish and Wildlife under the umbrella of the Dept. of Interior. I am reaching out to you as a fellow republican in regard to a matter that has come up in the US Fish and Wildlife Services. The ESA was enacted for the purpose of protection of vulnerable species throughout the United States. In many ways the endangered species listed have been saved from extinction through great efforts. A matter in regard to one of the listed species is becoming a problem for the transportation of a specific species across state lines. Any animal listed on ESA requires a special CBW permit in order to move across state lines. The species in question is the Radiated Tortoise. Astrochelys radiata is native to Madagascar, not the United States. This species is CITES appendix 1 which bans the movement of any tortoises from Madagascar or movement from any country where they exist. There are likely over 10,000 Radiated Tortoises in the United States. USFWS specifically Chief of permits Timothy Van Norman, has taken upon himself to stop the issuance of any Federal CBW Permits unless the facility is a zoo or an AZA Certified facility. The intent of the permit is to allow the movement across state lines with all parties required to possess said permit. If there is any compensation to take place between parties, each individual must possess a CBW permit. Any transfer of animals across state lines with any attached compensation, would make the transfer illegal. It is my understanding that Mr. Van Norman has stopped issuance of any permits this calendar year. There is a lengthy process and a non-refundable fee of 200$. Letters of denial have taken as long as 13 months with numerous reasoning by the permit chief supervisor. I personally know of at least 20 applications that were denied for numerous reasons. Typically the permit dept. will look for whatever reason on their part to deny the permit. It is paramount to stealing the 200$ fee since the dept. has no intention of issuing the permit. I know of at least 12 parties in multiple states that were denied the permit. All parties are experienced Tortoise hobbyist/conservationists. Their sole purpose including myself is to expand the gene pool of this wonderful species. We have every intention of helping repopulate this species of tortoise when we asked to participate. We would ask for your office to look into this matter as it seems that the USFWS Permit Dept. is working with a specific agenda that is out of bounds from the purpose of the permit process. If the said applicant submits a completed comprehensive application, there should be no reasoning to deny the application. At a minimum the applicant should be entitled to a refund since there never was going to be an issuance of the permit. The previous permit supervisor (Mike Carpenter) reviewed the applications and issued a comment or approval or denial letter in a timely fashion. That has not been the case since Mr. Van Norman took over. I am available to discuss this matter in detail at your choosing. I understand that this is a very busy time for you and the Republican party and hope that good things take place this November.
Sincerely, Evan Rosenoff DVM
 

keepergale

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Thanks for putting this up here. People need to know what is going on.
 

Tom

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I didn't know this was happening. Just another example of government tyranny.
 

deadheadvet

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I am hoping that enough people will contact their representatives in their home state and if enough e-mails get sent, someone of clout will do something about it. I am not sure if a petition is the way to go yet. We are asking for someone to review the application process and make appropriate changes. I personally believe Mr. Van Norman has an agenda and has used his position as Chief of permits to deny all applications that come across his desk.
 

deadheadvet

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So far i have only seen denials for reptiles unless you are zoo or Aquarium.
Since you are in Calf. You should contact your US Senator regarding this issue.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Evan, I have a few questions about this, not meant to put heat under your feet, I am thankful you have made this know.

You suggest a time range of 8 to 12 months? Is this anecdotal based on talking to people denied, or is there a more precise time when some public record showed a slow down and then leading to a stoppage?

Enchilada asks a good question too, regarding other groups of animals.

Then there is the USARK group, do they have any information regarding this?

Is Timothy Van Norman new in this role or has his hand been turned by a workplace superior, his history would help.

This is a big deal, but I'd like to better understand the problem you have noticed and are bring attention to.

I'll see what I can sort out too.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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BrianWI

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I can offer my opinion. It is free, so likely worth every penny.

First, often times our elected and appointed officials act like intolerant dictators and impose their sole will upon us despite truly not having the true authority to do so. In those cases, I am all for acting toward the useful purpose without any approval. In this case, ship 'em! If you are on a jury for a case like this, refuse to convict.

Next, is there a process for formally organizing a group of said breeders? Become a group or organization of equivalent proportions to a zoo or aquarium?
 

Tom

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Next, is there a process for formally organizing a group of said breeders? Become a group or organization of equivalent proportions to a zoo or aquarium?

No. The AZA is a bunch of selfish, self righteous, stingy elitists. This has been going on for some time with all the exotics. Zoos fail because of all their bureaucracy and they turn to people who have excelled with a given species in the private sector for help. Then the AZA denies animals and help to the private sector. Its a raw deal. There are those on both sides trying to bridge this gap, but the red tape is very very thick. Add in the .gov, and things go down hill quickly.
 

BrianWI

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No. The AZA is a bunch of selfish, self righteous, stingy elitists. This has been going on for some time with all the exotics. Zoos fail because of all their bureaucracy and they turn to people who have excelled with a given species in the private sector for help. Then the AZA denies animals and help to the private sector. Its a raw deal. There are those on both sides trying to bridge this gap, but the red tape is very very thick. Add in the .gov, and things go down hill quickly.
I'm not saying join an existing group; start a new one. Exotic Animal Conservationist Association. Something like that. As individual breeders, you ain't diddly. As a group of half a Million, you are a force.
 

Tom

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I'm not saying join an existing group; start a new one. Exotic Animal Conservationist Association. Something like that. As individual breeders, you ain't diddly. As a group of half a Million, you are a force.

Sounds like the TTPG, of which I am a lifetime member. AZA and anyone affiliated with them will not publicly give us the time of day. Back room deals still happen, but they happen against the will of the AZA and AZA members risk losing their accreditation if these deals are discovered. And I am not talking about anything illegal. Although the list of what is legal in this country gets ridiculously smaller every day.
 

deadheadvet

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Mike Carpenter retired in Sept. 2015. All applications that were sent in before or around that time have been denied. Van Norman now oversees all applications for Captive Bred Wildlife Permits. he has denied all. I have personally been in contact with 8 people who have been denied. They do not publish the denials, only approvals. I have spoken to people in Ga,Ca,NY,Fl,Al,. All had excellent applications. I actually read their applications since they kept a copy of the original. The longest time so far has been 12 months from receipt of application until denial letter received. I have forwarded a copy of the issue to USARK. If no progress is made in the next few months, I will contact their attorney to see how to go about a lawsuit against Fish and Wildlife. Cost likely will be a factor, but noone has taken them to task so Van Norman continues to deny permits and steal 200$ every time.
 

deadheadvet

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TTPG is the Turtle and Tortoise Preservation Trust. A very good organization with some excellent active members. Their annual meeting is in Mesa, AZ usually in November. I have attended in the past. There is a very good reptile show same weekend following the conference.
 

deadheadvet

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I think that this is an excellent avenue to combine ideas and contact our representatives in gov't. If enough e-mails/letters reach those that represent us, maybe someone will look into the matter and address it.
 

deadheadvet

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I have talked to Bill Z on this matter. He is very informed on how USFWS has worked in the past. It is his opinion based on information he has obtained through channels that Van Norman felt that the interpretation of the purpose for issuance of permit is that only zoos and AZA certified facilities should obtain the permit. It is his belief(Van Norman) that ESA listed species should not be sent across state lines for commercial gain. He has made it difficult for those interested in the listed species to legally obtain them. It is my opinion that those trying to follow the law are being harmed. It will push people to skirt the law and find ways to obtain the listed species.
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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TTPG is the Turtle and Tortoise Preservation Trust. A very good organization with some excellent active members. Their annual meeting is in Mesa, AZ usually in November. I have attended in the past. There is a very good reptile show same weekend following the conference.
Very very good I take a weeks vacation to go every year just to attend it !
 
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