US Fish and Wildlife Services

[deadheadvet]

I would not go so far that trafficking would take place. We are not seeing that as of now here. That is not to say that ESA animals are moving across state lines, I believe that is happening. Me personally who cares. The Radiated and Galapagos Tortoise are not native to the United States and are CITES Appendix 1. Which means they can not move from country of origin or where they currently reside. ESA designation should not apply to these non native species.
USDA Vets are very knowledgeable when it comes to inspections at importation. That is why you do not see much smuggling of these endangered species into the US.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Mike Carpenter retired in Sept. 2015. All applications that were sent in before or around that time have been denied. Van Norman now oversees all applications for Captive Bred Wildlife Permits. he has denied all. I have personally been in contact with 8 people who have been denied. They do not publish the denials, only approvals. I have spoken to people in Ga,Ca,NY,Fl,Al,. All had excellent applications. I actually read their applications since they kept a copy of the original. The longest time so far has been 12 months from receipt of application until denial letter received. I have forwarded a copy of the issue to USARK. If no progress is made in the next few months, I will contact their attorney to see how to go about a lawsuit against Fish and Wildlife. Cost likely will be a factor, but noone has taken them to task so Van Norman continues to deny permits and steal 200$ every time.

Thanks for the more specific detail Evan. My own application was processed in a very few months, That was in 2013. There is a way to tally denials, I think? Don't all applications have to be posted in the Federal Register for comments? We could certainly write in support of any applicant. We could also tally those applications. I know the Federal Resister is not an easily searched document, but it is also not that complicated. I have done it for a few things, maybe there are people here on TFO that might already do that in-line with their work - maybe they could provide a tutorial?

Anyone here on TFO closely associated with USARK.

@Tom I was an AZA authorized Studbook author, so I take much exception to your generalization of the angst between zoos employees and non zoo animal keepers. At the time I took to coursework there was no support or anti-support expressed for private owners' inclusion. That fact is most studbook keepers end up doing it voluntarily as employees. That other zoo professionals are sloppy and poor to respond to the information request that are needed to support a studbook makes in an onerous task. That most privates are even worse at the simple info request makes it that much harder. How many falsehoods have you come across with private owners in regards to the history of the animal they have? Put false data into a studbook and the whole of the book's credibility is compromised. Sorry to hear you have not been met with a better face from the zoo community. Like all professions many just end up there and do their best to avoid a full and complete accomplishment of tasks.

I too have met several zoo people who are card carrying a$$holes and seem to like thumbing their nose at a private keeper. I have also met several that don't do this at all and are embarrassed by that stance.

All animals trainers are cruel towards there animals, they are only in it for the profit they get from exploiting wildlife. Hows that fit your own experience in that industry. It's a false blanket statement. Still sorta annoyed you to see it though, maybe.

 

[deadheadvet]

Will:
There is a comment period that is 45 days. I have only seen on the Permit website, notice of application, and approvals. The individual receives the letter stating the reason for denial. Each time they find something to use for denial. Whether it be no experience with the requested species, or no proof of what you will do with progeny, not suitable enclosure to keep the requested animal, purpose of the permit is for financial gain, etc.

 

[BrianWI]

Turtle and Tortoise Preservation Trust. WHO? Too small would be my guess.

Poultry people battled and won to keep the Post Office shipping chickens and such for breed preservation. Rules and permitting, etc., are ludicrous, but they can ship. Somehow, you need to combine with some other groups to be bigger, bigger to the point someone will listen to you.

Ship them labelled as box turtles. LOL.

 

[tortadise]

I am hoping that enough people will contact their representatives in their home state and if enough e-mails get sent, someone of clout will do something about it. I am not sure if a petition is the way to go yet. We are asking for someone to review the application process and make appropriate changes. I personally believe Mr. Van Norman has an agenda and has used his position as Chief of permits to deny all applications that come across his desk.

The only issue we have had thus far is apparently they moved offices. We received ours "mailer returned wrong address" it's been sent back since a month or so now. Haven't heard anything. Of course we're non-profit, but not an AZA,ZAA, or aquarium. Wonder why he stated only AZA and not even ZAA. Not all aquariums are either too. Lots are private just like safaris, some zoos, and non-profits. We shall see what becomes of our renewal process. Had our permit since 2000.

 

[deadheadvet]

Renewal has not been an issue, only new applications.

 

[BrianWI]

When you ship, cross off "ENDANGERED TORTOISE" and write in "KITTEN". Problem solved.

 

[Tom]

@Tom I was an AZA authorized Studbook author, so I take much exception to your generalization of the angst between zoos employees and non zoo animal keepers. At the time I took to coursework there was no support or anti-support expressed for private owners' inclusion. That fact is most studbook keepers end up doing it voluntarily as employees. That other zoo professionals are sloppy and poor to respond to the information request that are needed to support a studbook makes in an onerous task. That most privates are even worse at the simple info request makes it that much harder. How many falsehoods have you come across with private owners in regards to the history of the animal they have? Put false data into a studbook and the whole of the book's credibility is compromised. Sorry to hear you have not been met with a better face from the zoo community. Like all professions many just end up there and do their best to avoid a full and complete accomplishment of tasks.

I'm not talking about studbook maintenance. I'm talking about animal procurement. Fiji Iguanas anyone? Komodo dragons? If I cared to make a few calls, I could give you many examples.

And its usually not the zoo keepers types. Its the higher ups and the AZA admin.

I've also met many zookeepers on both sides of this issue. Its a shame really. We could all help each other a lot more.

 

[Tom]

When you ship, cross off "ENDANGERED TORTOISE" and write in "KITTEN". Problem solved.

I realize you are being facetious, but you do realize they open the boxes and inspect them, right? I used to work for an importer and I was the guy going to pick up the boxes after customs was done inspecting. They would randomly open several boxes per 100. We would know they were opened because they'd leave a little leaflet inside and then use their own "official" tape to tape the boxes shut again. Fish and wildlife did this on incoming foreign shipments as well as domestic shipments from FL and NY.

 

[BrianWI]

I am only half-kidding. Importing, no, wouldn't work. Across state lines thru USPS? When I used to ship animals USPS, I NEVER had one turn up that was inspected by anyone. Never. Ever. Unless you count some nice postal workers who, when an animal was significantly delayed, would open the box to give them water.

 

[deadheadvet]

I think Brian has a point. Shipping via FEDEX or Delta Dash, the inspection is by lay personnel only and would not know an endangered species from a non endangered one. There however is the documentation of progeny by CBW permit holders. USFWS will want to know where offspring have gone and it would promote missing info from the Studbook because you could not record studbook numbers for animals obtained illegally.

 

[BrianWI]

I think Brian has a point. Shipping via FEDEX or Delta Dash, the inspection is by lay personnel only and would not know an endangered species from a non endangered one. There however is the documentation of progeny by CBW permit holders. USFWS will want to know where offspring have gone and it would promote missing info from the Studbook because you could not record studbook numbers for animals obtained illegally.

Offspring? What offspring?

 

[tortadise]

Renewal has not been an issue, only new applications.

Ah. Ok this makes more sense.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I'm not talking about studbook maintenance. I'm talking about animal procurement. Fiji Iguanas anyone? Komodo dragons? If I cared to make a few calls, I could give you many examples.

And its usually not the zoo keepers types. Its the higher ups and the AZA admin.

I've also met many zookeepers on both sides of this issue. Its a shame really. We could all help each other a lot more.

I have received animals from zoos, my partner sorta got ripped off by a zoo as well. I agree with this more specific statement.

At one time the AZA director wrote a lengthy article lauding that keepers had personal collections as well. It turns out that was not a well received article by mid and upper management at most zoos.

The VP at the Philly Zoo told me that several years before he got there the Philly zoo 'surplused' some sort of Duiker. It showed up later on at twice-the-average-age of a captive animal at some sort of caned shoot. Total fabrication of the animal's origin in captivity but the paperwork was still alive. Lots of people burned on both sides of that aisle.

Anyhow it seems USARK is the larger organization to push this, if they hooked up with a tax fraud attorney they may get some teeth sunk into the matter.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

There is also always networking with someone who already has a permit in the state where you want to receive, but I wouldn't know anything about that.

 

[Tom]

There is also always networking with someone who already has a permit in the state where you want to receive, but I wouldn't know anything about that.

This is my strategy, and I will follow all laws as they stand now, but I share Evan's outrage at this one jackass, dictating what everyone else may or may not do. Its wrong and it shouldn't be happening. Going around people like this solves the immediate problem, but the more this crap is allowed to stand the worse things get year by year.

 

[keepergale]

I have received animals from zoos, my partner sorta got ripped off by a zoo as well. I agree with this more specific statement.

At one time the AZA director wrote a lengthy article lauding that keepers had personal collections as well. It turns out that was not a well received article by mid and upper management at most zoos.

The VP at the Philly Zoo told me that several years before he got there the Philly zoo 'surplused' some sort of Duiker. It showed up later on at twice-the-average-age of a captive animal at some sort of caned shoot. Total fabrication of the animal's origin in captivity but the paperwork was still alive. Lots of people burned on both sides of that aisle.

Anyhow it seems USARK is the larger organization to push this, if they hooked up with a tax fraud attorney they may get some teeth sunk into the matter.

Surpluses animals showing up at a "game farm" has fallen at the feet of more than a few zoos. With no need of private parties I might add.

 

[deadheadvet]

I have sent an e-mail to Phil Goss, President of USARK. I will see if I can speak to him at the National Breeder Expo in Daytona next month. Hopefully we can get some guidance as to how to use a legal strategy to address the current issue we are discussing.