PURE ALBINO SULCATAS...

[Joe]

Hello Tom and everyone else. I appreciate everyone's posts. I too, did not come here to start any wars. Rather just share some truthful experiences working with Albinos. I agree with you Tom. I too, have sat back and listened many times to people make false statements about the true "Pink Eyed" Albinos. Not only on this board but at different places, and at trade shows. At least from my experiences, they were false statements. The main reason behind those statements for so long was for a couple reasons Tom. (Again not trying to make a war here either) First, the bashing of Albinos seemed to always help promote the sale and purchase of the "Ivory Sulcata's" as a form of marketing campaign. Just think back to what you have heard. Second, in everyone's defense, like you said I am the first to breed Adult's successfully. What does that mean. No one could have possibly known everything that there is to know, including myself! There is still much to learn. First generation babies that were here in the US are just now reaching Adulthood. But, at least we know now, they can survive the extreme elements and reach adulthood. And that they don't go blind, as some suggest! It has been a long awaited task raising these from babies. Part of the reason of silence, on my part up until now, has been because I wanted to successfully raise babies to Adulthood and then produce offspring successfully. This way the entire cycle has been completed. Now, I can simply speak from my experience. And my opinion will not change in reference my albino babies being stronger as a result of there parents enduring a extreme environment of South Florida.

**jbean (Holly) I appreciate your insight... as I was merely coming on the forum to share my experience and, in my opinion, address some false statements being made about Albinos in the sun, and blindness. By chance are you an Ivory Breeder? As you seemed to be very touchy on this subject? Just curious. I just want to be friends, okay?

**deans- I appreciate you starting this thread and promoting them. Thank You!

PS.- I had 15 babies and all have been sold in 10 days, with more expected to hatch in the near future. I did get many questions from my KS ad, and several future interested parties. I believe the Albino to Albino breeding was an important factor to the quick sale of the first clutch of babies, as the parents have proven themselves to be very strong animals. The babies they produce will only be stronger! If anyone has any questions in the future I will try my best to help. All my best, Joe....

 

[Tom]

Its fantastic what you have accomplished and I'm glad to hear it.

But still, I don't understand why everyone thinks albinos will go blind in the sun. It is NOT albino bashing in order to sell Ivories though. The albinos were around for many years before I had ever even heard on an Ivory, and for all those years prior to my knowledge of the existence of Ivories everyone said albinos would go blind in the sun. Your explanation could account for some of the misinformation in recent years, but it doesn't explain how the whole thought process got started. While you have raised a couple and I have raised none, is it possible that SOME of the albinos DO go blind in the sun, and for whatever reason YOURS do not?

You would have a much better idea about this than I would. How many albinos are "out there"? What percentage of them did, or did not, go blind in the sun?

And Joe, while we are on the subject. There is no rule against posting some pics for us...

 

[Yvonne G]

I am far, far from being an expert on this subject, but I think that the reason it is thought that the sun bothers the albino eyes is from horror movies with albino people in them. It is always shown in the movies and on TV that albinos (people) have to stay out of the sun because it harms their eyes.

 

[DeanS]

My ONLY experience with albinism was when I worked at San Diego Zoo. We had a white alligator at the Wild Animal Park and it was literally getting blistered by the sun. It was a huge advertising fiasco and from what I understood...it was dead within a month.

 

[Joe]

Hello Tom. From what I remember, Richard Fife from Arizona was the first person to introduce the Ivory Sulcata. That was in either 2000 or 2001. I remember because he was the cover story for Reptiles Magazine. The Ivory's came before the Albinos. The first people in the US to offer Albinos for sale was Strictly Reptiles in Florida. Not sure of the year but I believe was 2003 or 2004. Those animals were produced from Wild Caught Imports from Het. to Het. breeding. The first batch of babies were $20,000. The reason I know is because I knew the guy that took a line of credit out on his home to buy 5 babies at the time.

 

[yagyujubei]

With albinos, the iris of their eyes doesn't block the light like darker iris'. Their eyes are SENSITIVE to the light. It's like their eyes are dialated constantly. My eyes are light, and the sun bothers me much more than my brown eyed friends. I always wear sun glasses outside.

 

[jbean7916]

**jbean (Holly) I appreciate your insight... as I was merely coming on the forum to share my experience and, in my opinion, address some false statements being made about Albinos in the sun, and blindness. By chance are you an Ivory Breeder? As you seemed to be very touchy on this subject? Just curious. I just want to be friends, okay?

No, I'm not an Ivory breeder. You should be able to see in my signature that I only have a single normal sulcata. I do however have several ball pythons that I have begun breeding.

I never once disagreed with you on the fact that that albino torts can be in the sun or retain their eyesight. I don't have any experience with albino torts at all. My only question for this thread is what makes this line superior or stronger. I'm not trying to argue with you, it's just a simple question but it seems you are just as touchy as to the answer to this.

Just to make sure I understand:
You have the only clutch of albinos produced by an albinoXalbino breeding. You reason that because their parents survived in the same conditions that other "normal" sulcatas do when being raised in your care that they are some how a better line of albinos than an albino that is from a hetXhet pairing raised in the same conditions?

What am I missing here?

 

[Neltharion]

I never once disagreed with you on the fact that that albino torts can be in the sun or retain their eyesight. I don't have any experience with albino torts at all. My only question for this thread is what makes this line superior or stronger. I'm not trying to argue with you, it's just a simple question but it seems you are just as touchy as to the answer to this.

Just to make sure I understand:
You have the only clutch of albinos produced by an albinoXalbino breeding. You reason that because their parents survived in the same conditions that other "normal" sulcatas do when being raised in your care that they are some how a better line of albinos than an albino that is from a hetXhet pairing raised in the same conditions?

What am I missing here?

I don't think you're missing anything. I myself was puzzled by the same statement. Also just my own thoughts, and not meant to be a personal attack on anyone:

From the original statement, "Albinos that have been successfully raised from babies in extreme conditions are most certainly going to have stronger offspring then that of those first generation animals produced by Normal animals."

A few things, in general, I don't believe that two different animals or groups of animals raised in identical conditions would produce offspring with any one having an advantage over the other. If anything, the original albino is probably going to be stronger than the third or fourth generation of animals bred through sibling to sibling or parent to offspring breedings. Inbreeding increases the probabilty of undesirable, recessive traits surfacing in the offspring.

The other statement, "parents enduring a extreme environment of South Florida" produce hardier offspring that the animals of other breeders from areas where conditions are not as extreme. I would also disagree with that.

Physical conditions endured by the parents do not alter their genes, and would not result in altered offspring. Now if the parent animals were born with genes that made them more resilient to extreme temperatures, then yes, they could pass those genes to their offspring.

Example, a woman with a very large nose and a man with a very large nose decide to have plastic surgery to decrease the size of their noses. They are not going to have a baby with a small nose because of the surgery. Their offspring will likely still have large noses.

 

[pdrobber]

My only question for this thread is what makes this line superior or stronger.

From the original statement, "Albinos that have been successfully raised from babies in extreme conditions are most certainly going to have stronger offspring then that of those first generation animals produced by Normal animals."

A few things, in general, I don't believe that two different animals or groups of animals raised in identical conditions would produce offspring with any one having an advantage over the other. If anything, the original albino is probably going to be stronger than the third or fourth generation of animals bred through sibling to sibling or parent to offspring breedings. Inbreeding increases the probabilty of undesirable, recessive traits surfacing in the offspring.

The other statement, "parents enduring a extreme environment of South Florida" produce hardier offspring that the animals of other breeders from areas where conditions are not as extreme. I would also disagree with that.

Physical conditions endured by the parents do not alter their genes, and would not result in altered offspring. Now if the parent animals were born with genes that made them more resilient to extreme temperatures, then yes, they could pass those genes to their offspring.

Example, a woman with a very large nose and a man with a very large nose decide to have plastic surgery to decrease the size of their noses. They are not going to have a baby with a small nose because of the surgery. Their offspring will likely still have large noses.

it seems almost a Lamarckian comment, no? 
I would also like to know what this added strength is and how it is being defined.

The noticeable change or evolution of the species, or at least the genetic makeup of the descendants of those individuals would take considerably longer than just one generation as far as I have learned...

please explain, young inquiring minds want to learn

 

[DeanS]

Example, a woman with a very large nose and a man with a very large nose decide to have plastic surgery to decrease the size of their noses. They are not going to have a baby with a small nose because of the surgery. Their offspring will likely still have large noses.

Good example! It reminds me of the millionaire who divorced his beautiful 'trophy' wife for producing him with an 'ugly' baby! Turns out she had 10s of thousands of dollars worth of work done...and her 'before' pictures left more than a lot to be desired! But I digress...

I, personally, feel FL is second only to AZ as the best state to raise sulcatas, but, I have trouble buying the 'pure strain' versus het thing! Like Tom said earlier (and I hinted at even before that)...Joe, start your own thread with photos and complete history of your endeavors. Not to prove anyone right or wrong necessarily, but because it would be fascinating. I do still have my copy of REPTILES introducing Ivory sulcatas, BTW!

 

[Neltharion]

The noticeable change or evolution of the species, or at least the genetic makeup of the descendants of those individuals would take considerably longer than just one generation as far as I have learned...

That is also a very good point.

---

Good example! It reminds me of the millionaire who divorced his beautiful 'trophy' wife for producing him with an 'ugly' baby! Turns out she had 10s of thousands of dollars worth of work done...and her 'before' pictures left more than a lot to be desired! But I digress...

Sounds like one of the 'Real Housewives of NY'.

I, personally, feel FL is second only to AZ as the best state to raise sulcatas, but, I have trouble buying the 'pure strain' versus het thing! Like Tom said earlier (and I hinted at even before that)...Joe, start your own thread with photos and complete history of your endeavors. Not to prove anyone right or wrong necessarily, but because it would be fascinating. I do still have my copy of REPTILES introducing Ivory sulcatas, BTW!

I second that. I would enjoy seeing some pics, particularly of adults.

 

[Tony the tank]

I was under the impression that albino reptiles..we're not bothered by the sun..as albino is the lack of pigmentation.. The retina is what blocks UVB rays ...The retina and the cornea are the same..expect for the iris lacking pigmentation....I remember a few yrs back seeing an albino American alligator in Fla at some park laying out in the sun.... The park keeper gave a brief explanation... That unlike people (albinos) the reptile don't suffer the same... Except that in the wild being albino kind of makes it tough to blend in..

As for genetically stronger...I cannot comment..but I always thought strengthening of a species came Through evolution....

 

[kastalarial]

Does this make them weaker than an ivory?

 

[DeanS]

Does this make them weaker than an ivory?

Aladar would say so! But who knows?!?!?

 

[kastalarial]

Does this make them weaker than an ivory?

Aladar would say so! But who knows?!?!?

Very nice! Is is nails clipped or is it just me?

 

[DeanS]

Does this make them weaker than an ivory?

Aladar would say so! But who knows?!?!?

Very nice! Is is nails clipped or is it just me?

It's called having an entire backyard to roam that's 50% lawn and 50% concrete trails! The concrete keeps him well-manicured

 

[kastalarial]

I emailed Richard Fife on Ivory's I'm planning to get one. But the thing is, I don't want to risk it's health in travel half way to the eastern hemisphere.

 

[DeanS]

There's a breeder in China, as well!

 

[kastalarial]

Do you have the website of the breeder?

 

[kastalarial]

Richard got back to me and he said shipping here won't be a problem to health.