Preparing for Aldabra hatchling

[paulus]

I plan to buy two Aldabra hatchling next spring and want to start preparing. I couldn't find detailed information about enclosure.
I live in Houston, TX where it seems to be perfect natural temperature and humidity during 8 months/y or so excluding bad days like hurricane or rainfall. I think I will need both outside and inside enclosures to take them outside when is hot and inside during winter. What is recommended size of enclosures? I read it should be big but how exactly big? I think about 5x6 ft for outside enclosure and small inside plywood enclosure with glass cover for keeping humidity. How big (reasonable minimum) inside enclosure must be considering babies will be there ~4 months a year?
I even think about detachable part of outside enclosure like big box which would be home for outside enclosure but can be bring to house for keeping babies during cold days.

And one more question about future ~10 years. Would be 2500 sq. feet outside enclosure enough for two 10 years old Aldabras?

Thank you.

 

[Tom]

I plan to buy two Aldabra hatchling next spring and want to start preparing. I couldn't find detailed information about enclosure.
I live in Houston, TX where it seems to be perfect natural temperature and humidity during 8 months/y or so excluding bad days like hurricane or rainfall. I think I will need both outside and inside enclosures to take them outside when is hot and inside during winter. What is recommended size of enclosures? I read it should be big but how exactly big? I think about 5x6 ft for outside enclosure and small inside plywood enclosure with glass cover for keeping humidity. How big (reasonable minimum) inside enclosure must be considering babies will be there ~4 months a year?
I even think about detachable part of outside enclosure like big box which would be home for outside enclosure but can be bring to house for keeping babies during cold days.

And one more question about future ~10 years. Would be 2500 sq. feet outside enclosure enough for two 10 years old Aldabras?

Thank you.

Tortoises should never be kept in pairs. Not any species, not any size.

You need a 4x8 foot expanded PVC closed chamber enclosure. Plywood won't hold up and there is nothing that you can coat it with to make it last in these conditions. A glass top on a plywood box will also not hold in adequate humidity. 4x8 feet will be too small after about one year if all goes well.

Growth rate varies tremendously, but no, 2500 square feet will likely not be enough space for one 10 year old.

 

[wellington]

For comparison a Russian adult tortoise needs a 4x8 foot minimum. A small male russian will be about the size of your Aldabra hatchling. You need at least a 4x8 for each hatching.
As far as when they are bigger, 10 years, a 2500 Sq.Ft. is good for one, not likely 2 specially seeing they should not be kept in pairs. Get one or if you have more then the 2500 sg.ft. to give them, like double that, then get 3

 

[dd33]

We have three Aldabras and have had to make multiple housing upgrades in the last 4 years. We didn't start with hatchlings, ours were imports and probably around 6-8 months old. We kept ours outdoors from day one in a 6x12 enclosure. It had wood sides, a heated night box and a secure top made from 1/2" hardware cloth. In hindsight it would have been safer to keep them indoors until they were a little older, perhaps around 1 year or 1kg in size.

They spent a year in the first 6x12 before moving them into a new 16x16 enclosure. At this size we were still concerned about predators so this enclosure had 2 foot tall wood sides with 4 foot tall wire panels above that and bird netting covering the top. This enclosure had a 3x8 foot heated night box in it.

The 16x16 foot enclosure seemed too small after another year so we lengthened it by 48 feet, making it 16x64.

The 16x64 seemed sufficient for a while but their 3x8 nightbox was starting to get too small. At this point they were 4-5 years old and weighed between 60 and 85lbs.

This past summer we built their their next and hopefully final enclosure. Their nightbox is now 6x20 and the overall enclosure is probably 1.5 acres.

A few thoughts for you. I will differ from Tom and Wellington on two points. Three tortoises would be better but I think you would probably be fine with two. Aldabras really seem to enjoy being together. I also think you could get away with a smaller indoor enclosure for their first year. You could make a 2x8 closed chamber work for one year but no longer. At that point they really need to go outside full time or be moved into a significantly larger closed chamber indoors. Moving them inside and outside with the weather wouldn't be practical for very long because you would need the same size enclosure enclosure inside and outside. They also really don't like being messed with and moved around to new places in our experience.
Once outside they need a predator proof enclosure and a heated night box that you make sure they are safe in every night and on really cold days. 2500 sqft seems like a lot but it is probably not enough grazing and walking space for 10 year old tortoises. It is critical that these guys get tons of walking exercise when they are young.

 

[wellington]

The only one I know of that had two and they were males was @Yvonne G.
How did your two get along Yvonne? Were two a good idea or should you have had a third or separated them?
If I remember correctly Aldabras are quite old and very big before they become breeding age/sexually mature. I also know with the 10 or 11 Aldabraman has, he has still had some males battle. I'm thinking the problem with two, specially if two males, the problem of a pair, may not happen until they hit the maturity to mate? Something to consider when getting multiplies or only a pair.

 

[paulus]

Thank you for your responses.

We have three Aldabras and have had to make multiple housing upgrades in the last 4 years. We didn't start with hatchlings, ours were imports and probably around 6-8 months old. We kept ours outdoors from day one in a 6x12 enclosure. It had wood sides, a heated night box and a secure top made from 1/2" hardware cloth. In hindsight it would have been safer to keep them indoors until they were a little older, perhaps around 1 year or 1kg in size.

They spent a year in the first 6x12 before moving them into a new 16x16 enclosure. At this size we were still concerned about predators so this enclosure had 2 foot tall wood sides with 4 foot tall wire panels above that and bird netting covering the top. This enclosure had a 3x8 foot heated night box in it.

The 16x16 foot enclosure seemed too small after another year so we lengthened it by 48 feet, making it 16x64.

The 16x64 seemed sufficient for a while but their 3x8 nightbox was starting to get too small. At this point they were 4-5 years old and weighed between 60 and 85lbs.

This past summer we built their their next and hopefully final enclosure. Their nightbox is now 6x20 and the overall enclosure is probably 1.5 acres.

A few thoughts for you. I will differ from Tom and Wellington on two points. Three tortoises would be better but I think you would probably be fine with two. Aldabras really seem to enjoy being together. I also think you could get away with a smaller indoor enclosure for their first year. You could make a 2x8 closed chamber work for one year but no longer. At that point they really need to go outside full time or be moved into a significantly larger closed chamber indoors. Moving them inside and outside with the weather wouldn't be practical for very long because you would need the same size enclosure enclosure inside and outside. They also really don't like being messed with and moved around to new places in our experience.
Once outside they need a predator proof enclosure and a heated night box that you make sure they are safe in every night and on really cold days. 2500 sqft seems like a lot but it is probably not enough grazing and walking space for 10 year old tortoises. It is critical that these guys get tons of walking exercise when they are young.

Thank you for details. it really helps. I thought natural light and natural humidity is better then UVB and heater. In this case there is no reason to wait spring.
Did you do anything with ants and other insects on your outdoors?

 

[Tom]

The only one I know of that had two and they were males was @Yvonne G.
How did your two get along Yvonne? Were two a good idea or should you have had a third or separated them?
If I remember correctly Aldabras are quite old and very big before they become breeding age/sexually mature. I also know with the 10 or 11 Aldabraman has, he has still had some males battle. I'm thinking the problem with two, specially if two males, the problem of a pair, may not happen until they hit the maturity to mate? Something to consider when getting multiplies or only a pair.

The pair thing applies to all ages ad species. You can even see it in organisms as simple as flat worms to use Will's example.

Aldabras can breed as early as 13 years old. I also used to think it was much older than that, until a man who breeds lots of them showed me otherwise.

 

[wellington]

The pair thing applies to all ages ad species. You can even see it in organisms as simple as flat worms to use Will's example.

Aldabras can breed as early as 13 years old. I also used to think it was much older than that, until a man who breeds lots of them showed me otherwise.

Oh I didn't think it wouldn't happen in all ages. But knowing the Aldabra seems to like company and Yvonne had two males together, I figured maybe the Aldabras can handle it fine until adulthood. A lot of pics I have seen of wild Aldabras, they usually are with others, no loners, like a lot of the other species wild pics.
I too thought it was older then 13 for them to be sexually mature. 13 is still a lot of years to wait if one wants to breed.

 

[paulus]

Tortoises should never be kept in pairs. Not any species, not any size.

You need a 4x8 foot expanded PVC closed chamber enclosure. Plywood won't hold up and there is nothing that you can coat it with to make it last in these conditions. A glass top on a plywood box will also not hold in adequate humidity. 4x8 feet will be too small after about one year if all goes well.

Growth rate varies tremendously, but no, 2500 square feet will likely not be enough space for one 10 year old.

Thank you. I dream about bigger back yard and want to move during next several years. As I understand I will have 5-6 years with my 2500sq fts and 3 Aldabras. That enough time to me.

About pairs. As I understand two males often fight each other. But what changes in case of 3? All 3 can be males with a probability 12.5%. If all 3 will be male it will be even bigger problem isn't it? Or their mind works in another way?

 

[Tom]

Thank you. I dream about bigger back yard and want to move during next several years. As I understand I will have 5-6 years with my 2500sq fts and 3 Aldabras. That enough time to me.

About pairs. As I understand two males often fight each other. But what changes in case of 3? All 3 can be males with a probability 12.5%. If all 3 will be male it will be even bigger problem isn't it? Or their mind works in another way?

Do a search for pairs here on the forum. We've have talked about this many times over many years. Pair dynamics are very personal. Its one on one. Add a third and it changes things dramatically.

 

[dd33]

@paulus depending on the size that you start with, you should plan on keeping them indoors in a closed chamber for at least a year. I wouldn't suggest putting a hatchling directly outdoors.
You asked about bugs. Fire ants are always a challenge, other than that we don't have to worry about any other bugs.

The basic idea behind three or more is that the dominant animal is going to spread its aggression over more than one opponent. This gives at least some time to reduce their stress levels. When they start maturing you can have problems no matter how many you have. With two animals you would probably be worse off with a pair because the female would constantly be harassed by the male. Same problem if you had three and had two males and one female. You will always need to be prepared to have to separate these animals as they grow. Not an easy task with large tortoises and limited space.

Tom is right to suggest three or more and has way more experience with tortoises than I do. There are countless examples on this forum of the problems that keeping pairs can create. However Aldabras are unique among tortoises, They are communal in the wild and willingly gather in groups. Their survival requires them to cooperate on some level so they can hide in limited shade from the intense sun. Our animals are curious about what the others are doing and they rarely spend time alone. We have never observed the slightest bit of aggression with them other than sitting on top of food. At the risk of personifying them, they do seem to enjoy being together. We only have 4 years of experience keeping them though so I could be wrong about everything!

In my opinion, 3 would be the safest number but I think 2 would work. I think they are too communal to be alone so I wouldn't suggest 1. No matter what, you need to have the space to separate them in the future.

 

[Tom]

@paulus depending on the size that you start with, you should plan on keeping them indoors in a closed chamber for at least a year. I wouldn't suggest putting a hatchling directly outdoors.
You asked about bugs. Fire ants are always a challenge, other than that we don't have to worry about any other bugs.

The basic idea behind three or more is that the dominant animal is going to spread its aggression over more than one opponent. This gives at least some time to reduce their stress levels. When they start maturing you can have problems no matter how many you have. With two animals you would probably be worse off with a pair because the female would constantly be harassed by the male. Same problem if you had three and had two males and one female. You will always need to be prepared to have to separate these animals as they grow. Not an easy task with large tortoises and limited space.

Tom is right to suggest three or more and has way more experience with tortoises than I do. There are countless examples on this forum of the problems that keeping pairs can create. However Aldabras are unique among tortoises, They are communal in the wild and willingly gather in groups. Their survival requires them to cooperate on some level so they can hide in limited shade from the intense sun. Our animals are curious about what the others are doing and they rarely spend time alone. We have never observed the slightest bit of aggression with them other than sitting on top of food. At the risk of personifying them, they do seem to enjoy being together. We only have 4 years of experience keeping them though so I could be wrong about everything!

In my opinion, 3 would be the safest number but I think 2 would work. I think they are too communal to be alone so I wouldn't suggest 1. No matter what, you need to have the space to separate them in the future.

I don't think they are communal. I think they are together in the wild for the reason you listed. Not because they want to be together and like each other, but because that is where the food, or water, or shade is. Same with Galapagos. They are as aggressive as any species I've ever seen, but you always see pics of them together in the wild, or sharing communal watering holes in multi-acre pens in someone's Florida jungle paradise.

I think a pair is always a mistake. Its not so simple as the aggression gets divided among more individuals. Its that there is less aggression overall because there is always more tortoise activity to distract and overwhelm the aggressive instincts, and they just don't feel the need to try to dominate and drive the lone interloper out of their territory. Phrased another way: If there is a pair and the dominant tortoise displays 100 "units" of aggression, to just pick a random arbitrary number for the sake of illustration. This does not mean that this dominant animal will demonstrate 50 units of aggression to each subordinate if a third is added. It is more likely that much of the total aggression will dissipate, and might drop to a total of 10 or 20 units overall. In some cases it drops to zero in groups, because there is no point and no need to drive others away, and the group is simply "accepted". This would change, of course, when juveniles start nearing maturity in some species and the males start feeling those adult hormones start to flow. Or even females in the case of Russian torts.

Here is another example that might illustrate the point. Ravens. A mated pair will be super territorial and drive other ravens out of their territory. Sometimes flocks of juveniles or bachelor males will form. If one or two bachelors or juveniles show up to a food source that has been claimed by a dominant pair, the pair will drive them off. If five or ten or twenty juveniles show up, the adult pair will just accept their presence and sit there sharing the meal with them, side-by-side.

Three tortoises works, but I'm still sussing out what is "optimal" for the various species and sizes. In most cases, I'm inclined to go for 5 or 6. It seems like individuals start to get "lost in the crowd" once the numbers start getting above 10. Three is okay, but what if one doesn't thrive or grow as fast as the others, or if something happens to one of them? Then you are left with a pair again.

I have not done experiments with different group sizes of Aldabras to see what they do or don't do, but I think pairs are a mistake with any species. I have not seen anything that makes me think there is an exception. Not with RFs, sulcatas, leopards, any of the Testudo, Gopherus, pancakes, Chersina, chacos, both star species, radiata, or Galapagos. I recognize that some species are less aggressive and territorial than others, my platynota are an example, and Aldabras seem to be more chill than some other species, but the pair thing still applies.

 

[Tom]

@paulus depending on the size that you start with, you should plan on keeping them indoors in a closed chamber for at least a year. I wouldn't suggest putting a hatchling directly outdoors.
You asked about bugs. Fire ants are always a challenge, other than that we don't have to worry about any other bugs.

The basic idea behind three or more is that the dominant animal is going to spread its aggression over more than one opponent. This gives at least some time to reduce their stress levels. When they start maturing you can have problems no matter how many you have. With two animals you would probably be worse off with a pair because the female would constantly be harassed by the male. Same problem if you had three and had two males and one female. You will always need to be prepared to have to separate these animals as they grow. Not an easy task with large tortoises and limited space.

Tom is right to suggest three or more and has way more experience with tortoises than I do. There are countless examples on this forum of the problems that keeping pairs can create. However Aldabras are unique among tortoises, They are communal in the wild and willingly gather in groups. Their survival requires them to cooperate on some level so they can hide in limited shade from the intense sun. Our animals are curious about what the others are doing and they rarely spend time alone. We have never observed the slightest bit of aggression with them other than sitting on top of food. At the risk of personifying them, they do seem to enjoy being together. We only have 4 years of experience keeping them though so I could be wrong about everything!

In my opinion, 3 would be the safest number but I think 2 would work. I think they are too communal to be alone so I wouldn't suggest 1. No matter what, you need to have the space to separate them in the future.

Thinking more about this, I would love to do this experiment with a bunch of clutcmate Aldabras. I'd repeat it over several years. Keep a few single. Keep several in pairs. Then keep several in groups of 3-6. Start them all the same, feed them all the same, soak them all the same, house them all the same, same temps and humidity, same amount of time outside, etc... I'd weigh them monthly and observe behavior.

I suspect I know what we would find, but there might be some useful surprises in there too. There is no end to what we can learn with tortoises if we have the time, space, interest, and money to play with.