Pardalis or Babcocki

[tortadise]

So today I was giving mr.t a bath and gave him a good scrub and measured him and just looked real close. I started wondering if he is maybe a pardalis pardalis, Hes 17" straight length and has quite a different spotting look than my known babcocki leopards.

What do you leopard nuts think?

 

[Tom]

My best guess would be a hybrid between the two subspecies.

Given the fact that for more than 20 years any old leopard from anywhere in the world has been thrown in with any other leopard, there is just really no way to know anymore, unless you can find someone who imported them from a known locality many years ago, and has kept them separate for all these years. I know of only one man that does this, and that is how I am so certain of my Gpp. It has long been my suspicion that a lot of the Gpb out there are really a mix.

 

[tortadise]

Thats what I was thinking. Hes just so big compared to my other male thats only 12" and around the same age.well I pretty set on a mix and he does look mor gpd compared gpp that ive had, I just wanted to find others opinions before I put a price on him, hes too aggressive and large to keep in my winte.r house

 

[Tom]

I don't want to start another big debate on your thread, but everything you describe there are traits that I associate with Gpp or Gpp hybrids. Bigger size, different shell markings, more aggressive... It is my suspicion, unconfirmable of course, that a large percentage of these very unshy outgoing Gpb are really hybrids. Often they are a little bigger than "normal" for a babcocki, and when you see Gpp and Gpb adults side by side, the behavioral differences are very obvious. At least that is what I have observed.

 

[tortadise]

Oh yeah I totally agree. its unfortunate really, same with sulcatas too. who knows really what most are unless known from original import.

 

[Neal]

I think for all intents and purposes, this tortoise is a babcocki. There is no way to prove it one way or the other really, but the best we can do in the US with Leopard genetics is that we have South African Leopards on one hand and mutts on the other. I've yet to find anyone that can prove they know where their babcocki leopards were imported from.

On the behavior thing...is the tortoise always aggressive and eager to breed, or just during specific times of the year?

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

What an absolute monster of a male!! But yeah impossible to know for sure what he is unless you know where the parents were imported from. If you ever need to get rid of that guy give me a holler lol.

 

[tortadise]

Oh man hes aggressive all the time. His nick name is ramy mcrammerson. He will ram rocks and branches. Breed and breed and breed, ram and breed. He definitely gets solitary after he does his thing, but will run over to me when im in his pen and ram away. total night and day compared to the females and other males I have. They are typical shy guys. Spot didnt open up to me until he was 7 years old. Mr.t psssssh day one im gonna ram yah. Hes kinda funny actually. Even stops his eating to ram me. Then goes back to eating when I leave. Hes definitely my best breeder.

 

[Julius25]

He's very nice !!!!

 

[tortadise]

What an absolute monster of a male!! But yeah impossible to know for sure what he is unless you know where the parents were imported from. If you ever need to get rid of that guy give me a holler lol.

Lol. He is a biggen and a great breeder. I havent decided yet on him yet. I will keep everyone posted. Just need some more funds for a new greenhouse, and keep trading torts instead of getting financial flow for huge projects. I need a moderator to put hold me back from new tort additions. Ha im on overload.

 

[yagyujubei]

Well, I think we can rule out pure babcocki, so that leaves pure p.pardalis, or a mix. I see many s. african traits, but unless you were told it was pure, I think you'll have to, for now, call him a mix of the two. How long have you had him?

 

[tortadise]

Ive had him for 10 years. He was around 7" when I got him. I think hes a mix. I wouldnt of got him at a babcocki price if he was pur pardalis pardalis. Wish they could do dna strain test or come up with a gene analysis. But more than likely, as with a huge percentage of leopards out there they are mixed unless known pure adults, as discussed. Hes still awesome. I just wish I knew who produced him.

 

[Livingstone]

I grew up in South Africa with alot of leopard torts, I would say that the shell shape would be an obvious tell in terms of sub species. Paradalis dont have the pronounced carapace scutes, even male paradalis which have more pronounced scutes than females dont exhibit anything like what you have here. The size is definitely impressive though.

 

[Neal]

I grew up in South Africa with alot of leopard torts, I would say that the shell shape would be an obvious tell in terms of sub species. Paradalis dont have the pronounced carapace scutes, even male paradalis which have more pronounced scutes than females dont exhibit anything like what you have here. The size is definitely impressive though.

Interesting observation.

When you say pronounced carapace scutes, are you referring to pattern, shape, or something else?

 

[tortadise]

Yes Expand on the sub species while your were down there. I would love to know. It fascinates me like my redfoots and all the different countries and colors and shapes they show.

Like I wonder if perhaps pardalis pardalis and babcocki ever interbreed in the wild. I suppose this could portray a quandery. Theres only 1 way to find out, African Expedition.

Seriously though, although they may be the "same species" in alot of the countries we still need to take into consideration of evolutionary aspects that diversify those species into a "subspecies" an ethiopian leopard im sure will be totally different and resemble similar chacteristics than that of a Ugandan leopard. They have to evolve and become accustomed to their surroundings which portray similiar geograpahical aspects but in the long period diversify the "same" species as actually a different one.

Man here I go starting a debate on subspecies.

 

[Neal]

Kelly, there was a study done that identified at least 7 different types of leopards...have you read this? It was floating around the forum on a couple of threads, I'll see if I can dig it up for you.

 

[tortadise]

That would be sweet! I have not seen it. Cant wait to read it.

 

[Neal]

Here you go:

http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2010a.pdf

 

[tortadise]

Thats a cool article. As well as a MASSSSSSIVE pardalis pardalis. Man that thing is the size of small female galops.