Loss After Hibernation

[Yvonne G]

I wish I knew what to look for when tortoises wake up from hibernation and they're going to die.

I gather up my Russian tortoises towards the end of September and set them up in an area on my car port that's dry and protected from the weather. Once they've gone to sleep, I cover them with leaves to about a depth of a foot, and close the lid, leaving them alone until they wake up in the spring.

They were moving around last week, so I got them out and soaked them, putting them back outside into their yard after the soak.

Yesterday I smelled death. So I went looking for the dead tortoise. I found one of my largest female Russian tortoises not quite dead, but smelling of dead animal. She was rotting and still alive.

I gave all the tortoises an examination when I put them into the soaking water. They all carried a good weight, had bright clear eyes and were squirmy and active.

Why are they able to live through the rigors of hibernation only to die a few days after they wake up?

 

[Tom]

My opinion?

Because our climate is vastly different than the climate where these guys come from, and when we do as so many members here advocate and let them figure it out on their own, it doesn't work sometimes. Some of them do well enough and survive, but letting them shut down on their own in fall outdoors, and then hibernating them above ground with our inconsistent temperature swings all winter long, and then putting them back outside in spring with our cold nights and days that can be 55-95 all spring long, just doesn't suit them well enough.

How many times have people said things like: "Tortoises have survived for millions of years without human help. They know what to do…" I say they don't. I say that even if they know what to do in their wild native areas where they hatch, they don't know what to do in our artificial, man made (or woman made…), small, captive environments, on a totally foreign continent.

It is my assertion that because we keep these tortoises in artificial environments that cannot possibly provide them with all the things the wild can provide, that we need to artificially help them with the details of hibernation. Leaving them outside and hoping they know what to do and make all the right choices, frequently leads to their death. I take the choices away from them. I make sure every detail is covered starting with cutting off the food (and leaving no possibility of them eating anything…), gradually reducing the light cycle and temperatures, getting and keeping them well hydrated and emptying the gut before hibernation begins, gradually getting them down to the correct temp for hibernation and keeping the temperature consistent and cold enough all winter long, and then reversing the process in spring with a gradually warm up and light cycle and daily soaks for a while. I could not do these things in an uncontrollable outdoor enclosure. I have to bring them in. The result of my efforts is that every animal of every species that I hibernate wakes up alive and well.

 

[dmmj]

perhaps the tortoise did not make it well through hibernation. I don't necessarily agree with the weather Theory mainly because the mountains of Afghanistan are very cold and Hard Place & hibernation should be a breeze compared there. Perhaps it was sick with an underlying illness you cannot see. it survive hibernation but just didn't have the strength to make it back out. That's what I think

 

[JoesMum]

perhaps the tortoise did not make it well through hibernation. I don't necessarily agree with the weather Theory mainly because the mountains of Afghanistan are very cold and Hard Place & hibernation should be abreeze compared their. Perhaps it was sick with an underlying illness you cannot see. it survive hibernation but just didn't have the strength to make it back out. That's what I think

I think you may be right. I'm guessing that, for whatever reason, hibernation was not good for this animal.

So sorry to hear of your loss Yvonne.

 

[Pearly]

I'm so sorry for your loss Yvonne❤️

 

[Tom]

perhaps the tortoise did not make it well through hibernation. I don't necessarily agree with the weather Theory mainly because the mountains of Afghanistan are very cold and Hard Place & hibernation should be a breeze compared there. Perhaps it was sick with an underlying illness you cannot see. it survive hibernation but just didn't have the strength to make it back out. That's what I think

But that is exactly my point. Where they come from it is consistently cold, like snow on the ground, all winter long. They bury down and it stays very cold and consistently cold. Just like my fridge. Here in CA we have very mild, pleasant winters. It might be 60 one day and 85 everyday for the next week the next week, followed by cold rainy weather the week after that.

My point is that is is too warm and much too inconsistent for a Russian tortoise to be hibernated above ground, even though some of them survive it every year, many don't.

 

[dmmj]

if it was weather-related she probably would have lost more. One out of the group is not usually weather related. one out of the group usually points to an illness of some sort. But I'm not psychic so I can't say one way or the other

 

[wellington]

So sorry she didn't pull all the way through.

 

[gamera154]

so sorry for your loss im sure what ever was or is killing her she will be missed

 

[Cheryl Hills]

So sorry you lost her. I am sure she will be missed. Sometimes things just happen but I am sure you cared for her well.

 

[ascott]

I wish I knew what to look for when tortoises wake up from hibernation and they're going to die.

I gather up my Russian tortoises towards the end of September and set them up in an area on my car port that's dry and protected from the weather. Once they've gone to sleep, I cover them with leaves to about a depth of a foot, and close the lid, leaving them alone until they wake up in the spring.

They were moving around last week, so I got them out and soaked them, putting them back outside into their yard after the soak.

Yesterday I smelled death. So I went looking for the dead tortoise. I found one of my largest female Russian tortoises not quite dead, but smelling of dead animal. She was rotting and still alive.

I gave all the tortoises an examination when I put them into the soaking water. They all carried a good weight, had bright clear eyes and were squirmy and active.

Why are they able to live through the rigors of hibernation only to die a few days after they wake up?

Yvonne, I am sorry to hear of this.

You say "rotting and still alive" my mind first says that perhaps she was bitten within the hibernacle? Perhaps one of the others settling in getting grouchy and such and gave a bite/nip and that then began a fester....terrible to hear dear...

 

[Lyn W]

So sorry to hear this, Yvonne.

 

[Pearly]

Yvonne, I am sorry to hear of this.

You say "rotting and still alive" my mind first says that perhaps she was bitten within the hibernacle? Perhaps one of the others settling in getting grouchy and such and gave a bite/nip and that then began a fester....terrible to hear dear...

I too think that there had to be a source of infection. In human many gangrenous wounds smell that way. Gangrene means tissue necrosis. The tortoise has had to have some source of infection if not on the outside, perhaps internal. Maybe bowel obstruction were the loops of the bowel with blood supply cut off started dying and decaying and the smell is coming from her orifices and breath? But this is just speculation. Again I'm very sad for your loss

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Good points made. Still a hurty. I am so bummed for you Yvonne. Hard to have happen. And in such a surprising way. Fine just a few weeks ago, and then bam. Could it be old age related especially if she was a biggie, long life biggie?

 

[Yvonne G]

But that is exactly my point. Where they come from it is consistently cold, like snow on the ground, all winter long. They bury down and it stays very cold and consistently cold. Just like my fridge. Here in CA we have very mild, pleasant winters. It might be 60 one day and 85 everyday for the next week the next week, followed by cold rainy weather the week after that.

My point is that is is too warm and much too inconsistent for a Russian tortoise to be hibernated above ground, even though some of them survive it every year, many don't.

This would be a good explanation for my Russian, however, we hear this same story from members who have species other than Russians...desert tortoises, box turtles, etc.

 

[Yvonne G]

I too think that there had to be a source of infection. In human many gangrenous wounds smell that way. Gangrene means tissue necrosis. The tortoise has had to have some source of infection if not on the outside, perhaps internal. Maybe bowel obstruction were the loops of the bowel with blood supply cut off started dying and decaying and the smell is coming from her orifices and breath? But this is just speculation. Again I'm very sad for your loss

It was raw around her cloaca.

 

[Tom]

This would be a good explanation for my Russian, however, we hear this same story from members who have species other than Russians...desert tortoises, box turtles, etc.

I hate that tone cannot be conveyed in the typed word here, so I will explain my tone for this whole thread… I ponder this subject a lot. Probably more than most. So its is a topic of interest due to my own failures with hibernation, and the failures of so many others that I know. My tone is conversational and earnest, not condescending or accusatory in anyway. I want to share my thoughts, and learn more about the subject from other experienced keeper thoughts and experiences. Okay, disclaimer over.

In regards to the above quote: How would this not also apply to DTs, Box turtles, or in my lone case of failure, Argentine tegus? Hot and sunny one day, followed by cold and rainy the next, is not going to be good for any hibernating species that is above ground. RIght? In a box in the garage will somewhat reduce the temperature extremes, by I propose that it is still too warm over all and still much to inconsistent.

Might it be possible that during a typical fall warm spell of a few days, that your russian (or someone's boxie or DT…) decided, "Hey, its been warm and sunny for a few days… Maybe I should go ahead and eat some of these yummy weeds here…" Then the next day sees the onset of cold temps for the next month or two, and the tortoise begins "hibernation" with that fresh food in its gut?

For people whose turtles or tortoises live outside full time: Do you have any way of knowing when your chelonians last meal of the season was, or verifying that the gut is completely empty before beginning hibernation? I ask because I do have a way of knowing and verifying using the methods that I use.

 

[Pearly]

It was raw around her cloaca.

Then it sounds like it was GI tract related. I've seen badly necrotic bowel in people and when you open them up, the smell is horrible. I assume that this particular tortoise passed?... If you were to cut it open I bet the bowel would be the source of the smell. I know that many members here would suggest necropsy, but I don't know who funds your operations Yvonne and unless you are wealthy or have wealthy and generous sponsors, that may not be a viable option. And I don't know if you could bring yourself to dissecting the dead tortoise to learn what killed it. I still think it's something about the GI track. I don't know much about hibernation, will have to read about it and educate myself. It just hasn't been a priority for me as my babies are RF and thank God, I don't need to worry about that. This is very interesting thing to learn. Still, my heart aches for you Yvonne❤️

 

[JoesMum]

In regards to the above quote: How would this not also apply to DTs, Box turtles, or in my lone case of failure, Argentine tegus? Hot and sunny one day, followed by cold and rainy the next, is not going to be good for any hibernating species that is above ground. RIght? In a box in the garage will somewhat reduce the temperature extremes, by I propose that it is still too warm over all and still much to inconsistent.

Might it be possible that during a typical fall warm spell of a few days, that your russian (or someone's boxie or DT…) decided, "Hey, its been warm and sunny for a few days… Maybe I should go ahead and eat some of these yummy weeds here…" Then the next day sees the onset of cold temps for the next month or two, and the tortoise begins "hibernation" with that fresh food in its gut?

For people whose turtles or tortoises live outside full time: Do you have any way of knowing when your chelonians last meal of the season was, or verifying that the gut is completely empty before beginning hibernation? I ask because I do have a way of knowing and verifying using the methods that I use.

With Joe, I am constantly monitoring him during the wind down. If we have a few warm days the countdown restarts for him - you know I have a lamp outdoors for him, but when the time comes for hibernation he won't eat even with basking under the lamp.

He seems to know when frost is coming and it's not unusual for me to put him down and the frost happen that night.

With modern technology, I monitor accuweather in the run up to hibernation - looking for a maximum of 9C consistently before I'll hibernate him.

He's double boxed in our garage and I have a min max thermometer in the box with him. The 'outdoor' wireless probe is in his box and I have the indoor part so I can read what's going on.

I have been known on very rare occasions to wrap a couple of picnic box ice packs in a towel and put them in the outer box to get me through a freak warm week in January. But I try not to do it as I'd rather get him up if the weather turns warm.

 

[Yvonne G]

Because I take in quite a few sick and injured turtles and tortoises, I'm fairly used to losing an animal occasionally. But it still bothers me when I lose one that appeared to be ok. Pearly, I'll bet your 'guess' is right on. Maybe she didn't empty her G.I. tract fully before going into hibernation, however, I did keep them in the hibernatorium for three or four weeks without food and with the lid open so sun could shine in on them. You're correct, necropsy is out of the question for me. I operate on a shoestring and do most everything I can myself.