Lighting and Heating

[Tank & Scooter]

Help, is it ok to run a ceramic bulb for heat 24 hours a day? I had originally bought a 75 watt basking lamp for heat and 13 watt mini compact uvb and uva light. For night I had a 100 watt red bulb for heat, I read online that my sulcata babies can see the infrared light it emits. It says it messes with their sleep cycle. So I went and got a 100 watt ceramic bulb. I now keep the ceramic bulb on for heat 24/7 and the uv light I have on timer 7am start 7pm off. Is it ok to use a ceramic bulb all day and night for heat and keep uv light on timer?

 

[Big Charlie]

Yes, that's fine. You should be using a thermometer to make sure the temperatures are correct. Those stick on thermometers are not known to be accurate. Your substrate has pieces that are too large and looks too dry. Your torts need high humidity. And it isn't a good idea to keep two torts together. Do you own the parents too?
Read this thread: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/

 

[Tank & Scooter]

Yes, that's fine. You should be using a thermometer to make sure the temperatures are correct. Those stick on thermometers are not known to be accurate. Your substrate has pieces that are too large and looks too dry. Your torts need high humidity. And it isn't a good idea to keep two torts together. Do you own the parents too?
Read this thread: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/

Ya I stay on top of the humidity, I spray daily. I keep them in 50 gallon tub, I can't keep higher than 50% humidity though. I don't wanna cover it because I fear mold or bacteria building. Do you really think it's bad to keep 2 torts ? Why, because bullying ? I just started reading on bullying. I did notice the little one eats less. They follow each other everywhere lol. It's cute. They seem happy. I give them plenty of different size hides, and they both go into the smallest one, were they are totally cramped lol.

 

[Big Charlie]

Ya I stay on top of the humidity, I spray daily. I keep them in 50 gallon tub, I can't keep higher than 50% humidity though. I don't wanna cover it because I fear mold or bacteria building. Do you really think it's bad to keep 2 torts ? Why, because bullying ? I just started reading on bullying. I did notice the little one eats less. They follow each other everywhere lol. It's cute. They seem happy. I give them plenty of different size hides, and they both go into the smallest one, were they are totally cramped lol. View attachment 235665View attachment 235666

I'm afraid that is exactly what bullying looks like. The following is to try to intimidate the other tortoise to leave, but he can't since he can't get out of the enclosure. You really need to cover it to keep the humidity in.

 

[TechnoCheese]

I agree. You need to cover, and separate them immediately. Tortoises are solitary animals, and cannot make friends. They should never be kept in pairs. Even in the pictures they’re showing aggression. Following(chasing), “cuddling”(crowding), sleeping in the same hide(crowding), and always being near each other is one tortoise trying to stress the other out to get it to leave the territory.

 

[TechnoCheese]

Please give these a read and come back with questions-
How To Raise A Healthy Sulcata Or Leopard, Version 2.0 https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php...ealthy-Sulcata-Or-Leopard,-Version-2.0.79895/
For Those Who Have a Young Sulcata... https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/For-Those-Who-Have-a-Young-Sulcata....76744/
Beginner Mistakes https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Beginner-Mistakes.45180/

 

[Tank & Scooter]

Really guys? Awe man, first I'm worried about bullying and now separation. I got 2 just so he won't be lonely. All the videos i see online, they're in little packs. I follow camp ken on YouTube and a whole bunch of sulcata owners

 

[TechnoCheese]

Tortoises cannot feel lonely, nor can they feel most emotions. They just feel content, and unsatisfied. Read this-
My tortoise ... hates, loves, unhappy, lonely... some part of it's life.
https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php...py,-lonely...-some-part-of-it's-life..148295/
Kamp Kenan And youtube is a terrible source of information. Kenan gives out mostly decade old info. The reason you see them in groups is because they’re in captivity. In the wild, they steer clear of each other unless mating or fighting. Even Kenan says that he finds a dead one occasionally from being flipped over by another male. Also, key word “Packs”. In pairs, there is always a dominant and a subordinate, and it causes immense stress in both tortoises. In groups, the bullying is spread out, but they’re still much happier alone.
Please read those links, and stick to the info on the forum. Most info online is completely false.

 

[Helyun]

I'm sorry, but I have 2 Sulcata, they've been together since birth. I've done tons of research on both sides of this fence. My two have a huge indoor enclosure, their house is more than big enough. They choose to be together and sometimes they choose to be apart. There is no aggression. The moment I see any issue I'll take care of the problem, but, until then, I'm keeping them together. Our babies are not in the wild, they are in captivity, things have to be a bit different.

 

[TechnoCheese]

I'm sorry, but I have 2 Sulcata, they've been together since birth. I've done tons of research on both sides of this fence. My two have a huge indoor enclosure, their house is more than big enough. They choose to be together and sometimes they choose to be apart. There is no aggression. The moment I see any issue I'll take care of the problem, but, until then, I'm keeping them together. Our babies are not in the wild, they are in captivity, things have to be a bit different.

Sadly, being together since birth changes nothing. Tortoises are solitary animals, and cannot make friends. You might not see aggression yet, but they are most certainly more stressed than they would be alone.
Being together in captivity is no different than being together in the wild, except for the fact that they’re forced to be together, and they cannot escape from each other. Tortoises only started being domesticated in the 70s or 80s I believe, and that is not enough time at all to adapt to living together, so it’s even more unhealthy for them to be together in captivity.
It’s never a problem until it becomes one. Just because you don’t see the signs of aggression doesn’t mean that they are happy, or that it’s healthy for them to be together. I highly recommend that you separate them before something bad happens.

 

[TechnoCheese]

I'm sorry, but I have 2 Sulcata, they've been together since birth. I've done tons of research on both sides of this fence. My two have a huge indoor enclosure, their house is more than big enough. They choose to be together and sometimes they choose to be apart. There is no aggression. The moment I see any issue I'll take care of the problem, but, until then, I'm keeping them together. Our babies are not in the wild, they are in captivity, things have to be a bit different.

It can also be very hard to read their emotions. I really like how @Tom put it on another thread.(I hope you don’t mind me using this, Tom!)

Animal Behavior has been my profession since 1986. All I do is animal behavior, all day every day, with many species of mammals, birds and reptiles. The following is "colored" by this fact.

When two dogs, or two monkeys, or two rats, or two parrots don't like each other, it is very easy for us to tell. We hear it, we see it in their posture, we see it in their facial expressions, and we see it in their behavior. Tortoises can't change their posture all that much. They can stand a little higher or lower, to stick their head out more or less, but that is about it. Facial expressions don't exists. Even the subtle eye cues, like what we use with elephants, don't exists in tortoises. What we are left with is signs that are much more subtle with our tortoises. "Cuddling", following, sitting on the food, resting face to face, and hanging out in the same area, are all tortoise language for: "Hey! Jackass! Get out of my territory!" Just seeing the other tortoise from across the enclosure is enough to cause low level chronic stress which hampers the immune system and makes one or both of them fail to thrive. This doesn't necessarily mean they drop dead, they just don't do as well as they could or should. They don't have to do anything. There does not have to be overt obvious combat for this to be a problem. There is seldom any obvious aggression with juveniles.
...

Here is more on the subject if you want it:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/

 

[Tom]

I'm sorry, but I have 2 Sulcata, they've been together since birth. I've done tons of research on both sides of this fence. My two have a huge indoor enclosure, their house is more than big enough. They choose to be together and sometimes they choose to be apart. There is no aggression. The moment I see any issue I'll take care of the problem, but, until then, I'm keeping them together. Our babies are not in the wild, they are in captivity, things have to be a bit different.

How many years have you been keeping tortoises? How many pairs have you kept together? What species?

 

[Tom]

Help, is it ok to run a ceramic bulb for heat 24 hours a day? I had originally bought a 75 watt basking lamp for heat and 13 watt mini compact uvb and uva light. For night I had a 100 watt red bulb for heat, I read online that my sulcata babies can see the infrared light it emits. It says it messes with their sleep cycle. So I went and got a 100 watt ceramic bulb. I now keep the ceramic bulb on for heat 24/7 and the uv light I have on timer 7am start 7pm off. Is it ok to use a ceramic bulb all day and night for heat and keep uv light on timer?

There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt floods from the hardware store. I run them on a timer and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them.
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species.
3. Light. I use florescent tubes for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most tubes at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. If you want it anyway, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height.

You've got some of the right idea…

• The CHE is good for ambient maintenance, but not as a basking heat source.
• No cfl type bulbs. They are ineffective and sometimes harmful. Use a long tube instead. The new HO ones are best.
• No colored bulbs day or night.
• Tortoises should never live in pairs. Definitely separate them.
• Those stick-on dial type thermometers and hygrometers are not accurate or reliable. Get a digital unit instead for $10 at a hardware store.
• Misting the surface does very little to help your humidity. They need damp substrate and a closed in top. Mold and bacteria are not a problem in closed chambers. An overly dry environment is s major problem.

Read those threads. Lots of good info for you in there.

 

[PA2019]

I'm sorry, but I have 2 Sulcata, they've been together since birth. I've done tons of research on both sides of this fence. My two have a huge indoor enclosure, their house is more than big enough. They choose to be together and sometimes they choose to be apart. There is no aggression. The moment I see any issue I'll take care of the problem, but, until then, I'm keeping them together. Our babies are not in the wild, they are in captivity, things have to be a bit different.

Can we see pictures of your huge indoor enclosure please? Can you provide a link or reference to the information explaining that housing in pairs is not detrimental to their long-term growth and health? How long have you been keeping tortoises? Thank you very much for explaining your background and setup.

 

[SULCY]

Are there any research papers or any information on Sulcata's in the wild? Everything I read is from people raising them in captivity. I remember Tom has a friend who works with them in the wild and was wondering if he has any papers written about them. I have been watching a news channel out of Africa and they show tortoises quite a bit. Mostly they show them as a pest in farmers fields and let me tell you they are not alone but in large groups. I have seen pictures in a small field were there may be 20 of them. I realize that when they are in the wild they have a very large area to roam just wondering if there is any research on how they live in the wild. Are there 5 per mile or 50 per mile etc. When they are in captivity space is the most important thing and most of us can not set aside acre's of land for them. I do believe in captivity 2 living too close together is stressful on them but are they as stressed if you have a herd of say one male and 4-5 females.Just rambling and thinking out loud.

 

[TechnoCheese]

Are there any research papers or any information on Sulcata's in the wild? Everything I read is from people raising them in captivity. I remember Tom has a friend who works with them in the wild and was wondering if he has any papers written about them. I have been watching a news channel out of Africa and they show tortoises quite a bit. Mostly they show them as a pest in farmers fields and let me tell you they are not alone but in large groups. I have seen pictures in a small field were there may be 20 of them. I realize that when they are in the wild they have a very large area to roam just wondering if there is any research on how they live in the wild. Are there 5 per mile or 50 per mile etc. When they are in captivity space is the most important thing and most of us can not set aside acre's of land for them. I do believe in captivity 2 living too close together is stressful on them but are they as stressed if you have a herd of say one male and 4-5 females.Just rambling and thinking out loud.

I think that the reason they are congregated in the field is for food. There is a resource that all of them need, and they would probably be willing to stay around each other to get it. I don’t think they would be that close in an open expanse of land, or a large field with no crops

 

[SULCY]

I do realize that the food brings them in but there must be a lot of them in the surrounding area for so many to be attracted to the field. What are they doing when the field is empty? I just wish we knew more about them in the wild. Are there more than one that share a burrow or is there only one? When they leave the field do they go to a large burrow or do they all go to individual burrows? Are they all together at a certain time of the year like for breeding? So much info we still do not know about them wish there was more info. For now we have to do the right thing for them as far as we know. Thanks for people like Tom who is very observant and has raised them for years and is willing to share his knowledge with us.

 

[Tom]

Are there any research papers or any information on Sulcata's in the wild? Everything I read is from people raising them in captivity. I remember Tom has a friend who works with them in the wild and was wondering if he has any papers written about them. I have been watching a news channel out of Africa and they show tortoises quite a bit. Mostly they show them as a pest in farmers fields and let me tell you they are not alone but in large groups. I have seen pictures in a small field were there may be 20 of them. I realize that when they are in the wild they have a very large area to roam just wondering if there is any research on how they live in the wild. Are there 5 per mile or 50 per mile etc. When they are in captivity space is the most important thing and most of us can not set aside acre's of land for them. I do believe in captivity 2 living too close together is stressful on them but are they as stressed if you have a herd of say one male and 4-5 females.Just rambling and thinking out loud.

There is some research for some species, but almost none for sulcatas. The best source of sulcata info that I have found in print is "The Crying Tortoise" by Bernard Devaux. The other source has been conversation with Tomas Diagne of the African Chelonian Institute in Senegal Africa. In the wild they live mostly solitarily in burrows. Almost nothing is known about what the babies do and I only know of two sightings of hatchlings in the wild at all. Much more study and info is needed, but regardless of what is learned, some of us have HUGE data sets for their behavior here in our captive environments. Learning about their lives in the wild is good and should be pursued, but not to the exclusion of what we observe daily at home in front of our own eyes. Frankly, the wild and everything that happens there is a very complex puzzle that I don't know if we'll ever fully understand. In contrast, through decades of trial and error, experimentation and study, we've learned what works in captivity. …And what doesn't.

 

[Tank & Scooter]

Thanks for everybody's input, I will be looking closely at there interactions. If they need to be separated I'll sadly release the little one at the lake at park. JUST KIDDING everybody lol. I will build him second enclosure. I just added a mint plant in there enclose. I checked the toxic list and it wasn't on there. Has anybody done this ? When I take them outside, they hide under it and don't eat it. That's why I inserted. Hopefully help with humidity. I forgot to mention. I do close there enclosure, I just said I don't because it was 95 degree in my house yesterday. I also gathered different thermometer and inserted in different corners because somebody said those stick ons are sometimes not accurate . I also added a second water. He ran in right away and just chilled out on it. He had just showered too.

 

[Big Charlie]

Thanks for everybody's input, I will be looking closely at there interactions. If they need to be separated I'll sadly release the little one at the lake at park. JUST KIDDING everybody lol. I will build him second enclosure. I just added a mint plant in there enclose. I checked the toxic list and it wasn't on there. Has anybody done this ? When I take them outside, they hide under it and don't eat it. That's why I inserted. Hopefully help with humidity. I forgot to mention. I do close there enclosure, I just said I don't because it was 95 degree in my house yesterday. I also gathered different thermometer and inserted in different corners because somebody said those stick ons are sometimes not accurate . I also added a second water. He ran in right away and just chilled out on it. He had just showered too.View attachment 235708View attachment 235709View attachment 235710

My tortoise usually ignored mint. I thought he didn't like it because of the strong smell, but today he chowed down on it. We have it growing in the yard.