Inside Carl vs outside Carl

[Terry Allan Hall]

I still haven't figured out why he won't move when I'm out there. Only time he does is if I brought out more food, then he beelines for the food dish

Most babies of most species are that way, especially outside. He'll come around in time.

True...baby tortoises (of all species) have such a lousy place on the food chain.

Once they get older, they also get bolder!

---

I am waiting the day when hibernation will get to the same level of recognition as outdoor keeping. It is so natural and self-understood in Europe!

As many here have explained to you, there's no actual advantage to brumating a pet tortoise, and many pet tortoises have died during the brumation period. Brumation is not as simple a process as some imply it to be.

OTOH, many pet tortoises have lived very long lives w/o ever being brumated...my first Hermann's went over 50 years "awake" during the winter, and she was an adult when found, so it's presumed that she lived to at least 60 yoa and possibly quite as bit older.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Haha, Terry! I was hoping that you won't see that! You are like an eagle!!

Well... first thing first: I don't need to be explained that, thank you very much- not even by many . At least, not such kind of things, of course. Mother Nature explained me a few things, and they came before the things any human would teach me... and my human teachers just confirmed HER teachings, and none of them had the arrogance to think they can be wiser than SHE is. None of us is, and we better remember that any minute of our lives.
But... as many times I told it to you - or many - MISTAKES kill, and that not only during brumation!

Brumation is not as simple a process as some imply it to be.

And why that? It's simple indeed! If you keep saying that, I would ask my tortoises, hatchlings included, to testify that in front of you- and of many .
And why those "some" saying that, would imply it's simple, if it was not?? It happens that ALL Europeans - meaning the MAJORITY of TEMPERATE tortoise keepers and BREEDERS- keep saying that!

Please try that:
when you will breed your Boettgeri, let a few hatchlings to fend for themselves in a controlled enclosure. Just be sure thay have all the features needed. I GUARRANTEE you that those left outdoors will bring you the best surprises and you will start to change your approach.
In your area, you need a little more humid microclimate, not bone-dry to successfully brumate BOETTGERI hatchlings. They react bad to dry conditions. Ibera would be more tolerant.


And, as usual, to show you that I love you man, despite our clinches, I must say I loved your sentence:

"True...baby tortoises (of all species) have such a lousy place on the food chain. Once they get older, they also get bolder!"

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Haha, Terry! I was hoping that you won't see that! You are like an eagle!!

Well... first thing first: I don't need to be explained that, thank you very much- not even by many . At least, not such kind of things, of course. Mother Nature explained me a few things, and they came before the things any human would teach me... and my human teachers just confirmed HER teachings, and none of them had the arrogance to think they can be wiser than SHE is. None of us is, and we better remember that any minute of our lives.
But... as many times I told it to you - or many - MISTAKES kill, and that not only during brumation!

Brumation is not as simple a process as some imply it to be.

And why that? It's simple indeed! If you keep saying that, I would ask my tortoises, hatchlings included, to testify that in front of you- and of many .
And why those "some" saying that, would imply it's simple, if it was not?? It happens that ALL Europeans - meaning the MAJORITY of TEMPERATE tortoise keepers and BREEDERS- keep saying that!

Please try that:
when you will breed your Boettgeri, let a few hatchlings to fend for themselves in a controlled enclosure. Just be sure thay have all the features needed. I GUARRANTEE you that those left outdoors will bring you the best surprises and you will start to change your approach.
In your area, you need a little more humid microclimate, not bone-dry to successfully brumate BOETTGERI hatchlings. They react bad to dry conditions. Ibera would be more tolerant.


And, as usual, to show you that I love you man, despite our clinches, I must say I loved your sentence:

"True...baby tortoises (of all species) have such a lousy place on the food chain. Once they get older, they also get bolder!"

You seem to think that you're the only person to have ever bred tortoises...and that pet tortoises are, in every way, exactly like wild tortoises.

Both assumptions are incorrect, just as saying that brumating pet tortoises outside is simple is an incorrect assumption...a wild tortoise has the ability to search until it finds just the right spot to brumate...and even then, some still die or become blind and/or frost-bitten and/or rat-chewed... .

A pet tortoise, otoh, will find the best spot, in it's enclosure, to brumate...which may, or may not, be good enough. And if the best spot it can find in it's enclosure isn't a good enough spot, it can certainly die or become blind and/or frost-bitten and/or rat-chewed...

Or if t's well-meaning keeper puts it in the refrigerator (a new fad) to artificially brumate, some tortoises will survive that, but others will not. And some will artificially brumate their tortoise in a box full of leaves in the garage or out-building over winter...and, yes, some do survive that, too, while other succumb. Or become blind and/or frost-bitten and/or rat-chewed...

Over-wintering your tortoise inside allows you to observe your pets DAILY and correct any issues before they become fatal, and there is no downside whatsoever.

Remember, primitive men sometimes lived in caves and hunted w/ flint-tipped weapons, but very few could do so these days...we've advanced and so can our tortoise-keeping, if we're not afraid to think outside the box a little...

 

[CourtneyAndCarl]

If it's all the same to anyone else, I'm never, ever going to brumate....

 

[CactusVinnie]

Well, that makes me a real life God, since under My divine, infailible care, none of My animals suffered from brumation. All those threats and dangers vanished like thin smoke when My divine hand was involved. But I am not the Only God, it seems, since many others can perform the same miracles. Therefore, I am not the Real God. And brumating conditions are just a set of simple guidelines, not ezoteric knowledge.

Terry... I was talking about CONTROLLED brumation for most of our tortoises, and only EXPERIENCING with a few CB, when having enough to afford, free, outdoor brumation- that, if you don't have the mood to prepare defined brumation chambers or fridge. Far as I know, in my concrete hydrophore underground chamber there is no danger of freeze or rat attack. Unless we get under -30*C for 2 months, and myself being dead or missing. But in my region there is no such winter, and I intend to live and adjust the protection, if climate changes will bring Manitoba climate in Northern Balkans. But still brumate tortoises.

Don't mix things. What you described are EXACTLY the things I indicate as killers, instead of blaming brumation: I am talking about MISTAKES, flagrant ones, specifically, in your description. Well, I NEVER advocated CARELESS brumation- "let it be, and we'll see later"- and that was the kind of brumation you described. No, I don't call that RESPONSABILITY for such precious animals.
Of course I would say to anyone "if you are not able to meet these few demands for a correct brumation, you better keep them awake... or give your tortoise to someone else who cares enough to learn about."

 

[jaizei]

If it's all the same to anyone else, I'm never, ever going to brumate....

I would be hesitant initially as well. While I do not see brumation as a necessity, I think you should keep an open mind. Ever is a long time. I think we should avoid locking ourselves into one mindset, and periodically reevaluate what we do, how we do it. The worst that will happen is that we improve our husbandry.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Yes, Jaizei, THAT is indeed what is called not to be "afraid to think outside the box a little...". Always cautious, of course, but getting out of that box someday.

 

[Edna]

Vinnie, could you outline entry-level brumation for us beginners? Maybe in another thread? I'm not going to make a concrete bunker for them and try it outside this year, but I am interested in giving brumation a shot.

Terry and Vinnie, I love it when you two guys argue about these things because you are both so articulate. I'm reading both cases thinking, "Point!" "Point!" "Point!"