Immediate Changes for a URI?

[SamMmm]

Hi, I'm Sam. Long time reader, first time poster. Owner of a 1 year old Cherryhead, whom i've had for only 3 months.

I'm suspecting a URI.
Symptoms:
- swollen eyes - no discharge from what I can see.
- bubbles from nose
- bubbles from mouth (as of yesterday)
- wheezing (started yesterday)
- basking a lot
- not eating
Right now there's no discharge from the nose and mouth but I saw it yesterday morning and freaked out. She had not been soaking. Nose and mouth drainage looks clear.

What i've done:
- increased soaking to 3 times a day and adding in Vita-Sol. This will be third day using Vita-Sol.
- increased temps from 60W mercury vapor to a 75W (NOT coil). So now cool temp is in the low 90s and basking area is over 100 during day. I have this light going 24 hrs right now because I want to keep those temps up constantly.
- Vet appointment for tomorrow.
- tilting her downward to drain whatever mucus is clogging her nose and mouth.

My wrong-doings:
- Temps in Hawaii have been really cold at night. I thought having heat 14 hours would be enough but the 60W probably wasn't strong enough. 75W will probably become permanent until summer takes over.
- She is also recovering from a fungal shell rot. Treating with an athlete's foot liquid that has rid the fungal infection big time. Substrate has been changed twice since treatments have started. Cause of fungal infection was a type of cypress mulch that I was using. It had a huge amount of condensation and stored on a dark shelf... Perfect fungal growth conditions... I also had cardboard at the bottom of the tank (40 gall Exoterra) and that organic material was a good food source for fungus. So I took that out. Also, mold was growing at the bottom of a tile I had in there... Took that out. She is strictly on rehydrated coconut coir, rehydrated terrarium moss and sphagnum moss. Each time I changed the substrate, I disinfected before I shovled new substrate in. However, this fungal infection might have travelled to eyes and upper resp.
- I also wasn't using Vita-Sol before. She refuses to eat romaine, cat grass, hibiscus leaves or flowers, papaya, aloe, banana leaves, turnip leaves, bell peppers. She eats spring mix (minus spinach), kale, grass, apple if mashed, mashed pumpkin, mushrooms, brussel sprouts, zucchini and of course mazuri tortoise pellets.

I'd also like to add, she has a 15ft by 3ft area outside but i'm scared to leave her out there permanently because she is bite-size for stray cats. Only on my days off from work.

My question: Is there anything else I can do to help her immune system??? Is there anything I can do until the vet appointment? Anything i'm missing? Is this infection severe?

This combined with a fungal infection... I'm starting to think i'm the worst tortoise mommy in the world and i'm on my way in becoming a tortoise murderer... Are these problems common for first time owners? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Edit: I'm also spraying her eyes with a saline solution as recommended else where on this forum. Just took her out of her soak and there's no bubbles or mouth breathing so that's kinda encouraging. Also, eyes slightly open. I was convinced it was a Vitamin A deficiency but with the wheezing i'm thinking URI.

 

[Redstrike]

Sorry to hear you and your tortoise are having a rough go at things. If your temps are 90 ambient and 100 basking, I'd say you might have things a bit too warm. Sometimes if you dry them out, their eyes swell and they blow bubbles. I would try to get your ambient temperatures down in the mid to low 80's. A basking spot of 100 is absolutely fine. I attempt to give my tortoises a temperature gradient, cooling things from the basking area to about 82ºF at the darker, cool end of the enclosure. Provided your tortoise might be sick, I would shoot for 85ºF on your cool end currently just just to be safe! I bet if you cooled things down a little the humidity would help your tort.

I'd give your tort a soak!

I accomplish temperature gradients with ceramic heat emitters and a thermostat. I'm guessing you don't need to fret about humidity given your location. There are many thermostats available and you get what you pay for! Proportional will provide smoother temperature regulation as opposed to on/off (which are usually cheaper). I've run Zoo Med 500R (~$25 online) successfully in the past and am currently running a Herpstat 4 - which is extremely expensive but comes with a lot of features that make my tortoises happy.

Cheap thermostat options:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=Reptile+thermostat&rh=i:aps,k:Reptile+thermostat

Expensive thermostat options:
Herpstat
Helix
Vivarium electronics

Vet is a good start, but I would advise against Vitamin A injection if they push you on it. I think a better alternative is to soak your tortoise with some sweet potato or carrot baby food mixed in.

Pictures of you setup and the tortoise would be extremely helpful.

 

[SamMmm]

Hi, Sorry for the really late response. I wanted to thank you for your response. I didn't want to reply until I had pictures and I was struggling with getting pictures from my phone to my computer.

I am now on the CHE bandwagon. Using a 100W bulb. During the day the basking is 97F. I'll have to check the temps for the ambient side. During the nights, it is 89F currently. I was thinking of upgrading to a stronger bulb but i'm not sure. I wanted to eliminate the lights since her eyes are still puffed up and closed. I do have one of the cheap thermostats since that's the best option they had at the best pet store around... I'll upgrade.

I'm doing baby food soaks and continuing with the VitaSol soaks. I'm not mixing... these are separate soaks at different times. At least 2 soaks a day. Sometimes 3 but I will not do any night time soaks since I eliminated the UVA bulb. I was soaking my tortoise 3 times a day when I wrote the previous post. I am watching her to make sure she's drinking.

Vet put Oli (my tortoise) on ceftazidime. 0.04ml every 3 days. It doesn't seem to be helping drastically. She's been on it for 1.5 weeks now. I scheduled another vet appointment for this coming monday. Still has wheezing, still has eyes closes, less bubbles coming out of nose but a lot when she's in a soak. A lot of clicking. She sticks her neck out and clicks with her mouth (and eyes) closed. Wheezing sounds different.

I do have issues with the humidity since the heat lamp dries things out so quickly. I really think I need a better quality humidity checker so I'll look into that too. So i'm going to be more on top of it with humidity. Always shooting for 80 if not higher. I was scared too high of a humidity would worsen her URI. But I trust your word on this for sure.



Is it normal for a CHE bulb to give off less heat than the mercury vapor? I had to up the wattage quite a bit but i'm not sure if that's normal or not normal.

 

[SamMmm]

I should mention... It's been 3 days since I've switched over to CHE. So I do think the bright UVA lights were affecting her. That white skin around the eyes does seem to be making a small improvement (maybe). How fast does a URI go away? How fast does eye irritation go away? I was also using Ophthalmic Gel for the eyes... Should I continue with that? Seemed to be getting sticky so I wasn't sure if I should eliminate or just to as thin a smear as possible.

Sorry for the irritating beginner questions.

 

[Redstrike]

I would cover the top with something more solid. You're losing loads of heat and humidity with the screen on top of the enclosure. Also, the water may be difficult for that little guy/gal to climb into. I use the small collection dishes that go under plant pots for water dishes in my enclosures.

I think if you up your humidity (it needs to be measured) and tighten your temperatures up (constant 83-85 on cool side; 87-90 on warm), you might see improvements. I can't answer your other questions but I hope someone else can.

Good luck!

 

[Yvonne G]

I would stop using the Vita-Sol that much. You only need to use it for one soak every so often...like maybe once a week.

Don't allow the habitat to cool down below 80F and try to keep it up to at least 85F overall.

It takes a while for the antibiotic to work. Just keep up the doses and finish what the vet told you to do.

Go back over what Redstrike has told you to do and make changes to your husbandry.

Oh, and - you will need the light AND the CHE. It helps if you run the CHE on a thermostat. That way it goes on and off as needed. But will probably stay on all night to keep the tortoise warm at night after you've turned off the light. I like to add some plants, either real or fake, to help diffuse the strong light and give the tortoise relief from the constant "sunshine."

 

[Redstrike]

Humidity should be at least 70% on the cool side of the enclosure. I piped a humidifier into mine to maintain 75%overall with my Herpstat (fancy, expensive thermostat). Search for the term "closed chamber" by member Tom on the forum. I run theses to keep heat/humidity up in my temperate northeast climate in NY. You're in a much more suitable area for redfoots and I hope you can go outdoors together to soak up humidity and UVB.

If your temps are in the low-mid 80's, increased humidity will be okay. While your tortoise is sick, shoot for 85ºF ambient (100 is fine at the basking location) and 70-75% humidity. Sick torts are tough, hang in there! I had a very sick hatchling a couple years ago and I think the best advice I can give is to provide the animal space. constant handling and worry lead to more stress on the animal. Administer the medicine, proper supportive care and husbandry, then leave the animal be to heal. It's easy to overdo it.

Hopefully others chime in shortly. I'm relieved @Yvonne G did! Opinions and assistance are welcome all!

 

[Redstrike]

I have a humidifier piped into my closed chamber. We just moved so I just reassembled the enclosure and still need to add plants around the hides.

 

[SamMmm]

Ok, thanks for the replies. I bubble wrapped the top. I'm also changing back to my 60W mercury vapor as those were the perfect temps (low 80s - low 90s). I was constantly second guessing myself which is why I changed it out.

It's been about 3 weeks since Oli has eaten so she's so lethargic and it's an extremely scary thing to see. Her eyes won't open even though the wheezing and bubbles have subsided. Also, humidity is up because I made a fresh batch of coconut coir and quickly shoveled that in. I hope her eyes open soon.

Submitted a poop sample yesterday to the vet.

 

[Redstrike]

Ok, thanks for the replies. I bubble wrapped the top. I'm also changing back to my 60W mercury vapor as those were the perfect temps (low 80s - low 90s). I was constantly second guessing myself which is why I changed it out.

It's been about 3 weeks since Oli has eaten so she's so lethargic and it's an extremely scary thing to see. Her eyes won't open even though the wheezing and bubbles have subsided. Also, humidity is up because I made a fresh batch of coconut coir and quickly shoveled that in. I hope her eyes open soon.

Submitted a poop sample yesterday to the vet.

I'm confused. A CHE attached to a thermostat was making you second guess the temperatures? When the mercury vapor turns off at night, how warm is the enclosure? Are you still using a CHE?

 

[SamMmm]

No, the different things I was reading everywhere was making me second guess myself... Night temps high 70s with the bubble wrap... this is around 3am when i come home from work.. Vet said this is ok. No CHE because vet said its warm enough.

 

[DutchieAmanda]

I'm sorry to hear your tort is not well... Hope he gets better soon!

How and where are you measuring your temps? The light looks to be quite high in your picture. Best is to use a digital temperature gauge, and put it at tort level.

Is he still not eating? Not even any of his favorite foods?

Good luck!

 

[Yvonne G]

I think your vet is wrong. Because your tortoise is ill, he needs to be in a much warmer environment. I would fix the temperature between 85F and 90F all the time, day and night. Once he is well, you can go back to a cooler night time temp. Think of it this way - when you get sick your body makes an increase in your temperature to help kill the germs that are making you sick. Your temp might get up to 103F while you're sick. So 85F seems like pretty small potatoes compared to 103F, huh?

Soak him in warm water every day for at least a half hour. If possible, set the soaking tub (including the tortoise) back inside the aquarium. This will help keep it warm during the soak.

 

[Redstrike]

No, the different things I was reading everywhere was making me second guess myself... Night temps high 70s with the bubble wrap... this is around 3am when i come home from work.. Vet said this is ok. No CHE because vet said its warm enough.

Yes, there is a lot of information out there so it can be difficult to wade through care giver X vs. care giver Y's personal opinions. Though these can be valuable as many caregivers have years of experience raising healthy animals. However, I concede that I always consider my source. I love TFO, but forums can be riddled with mis-information (I don't think TFO is!) as can personal websites.

So where do we go for factual information? I feel peer-reviewed research articles and books are a great resource. Would you agree with me on this? I have a copy of Mike Pingleton's The Redfoot Manual A Beginners Guide to the Redfoot Tortoise where he discusses "Enclosures and Environment for Neonates". Here's a direct quote (Pages 124-125):

"Warm and wet is wonderful, but cool and wet can be big trouble - mold, mildew and respiratory infections can occur. Make sure the temperature on the cool side of the enclosure is at least 80F (27C)."

Here's another one from the same book (Page 65 - "Establishing a Temperature Gradient" In: Chapter 10: Temperature):
"A good temperature range to start with is 92F (33C) on the warm end, and 80F (27C) on the cool end"

If you're humidity is 70% and your night temps are 70F, I think you're asking for trouble with a hatchling (this may be fine for an adult, but now we're talking very different surface area:volume ratios - extremely important parameter for thermoregulation of all animals). Like I posted previously, temperature gradients are great. A cool, humid, dark side at 80F with a warm, bright side at 85-88 and a basking spot ~100F has worked well for me.

Here are resources I've used to successfully care for my 4 redfoots (and yes, I've had a sick redfoot too!!! It happens!!!):
http://www.tortoiselibrary.com (Well researched information by a moderator here on the forum)
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1441494030/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 (If you can afford to purchase this book, I would strongly suggest you do so and read it cover-to cover).
http://www.amazon.com/dp/3899736036/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plant_booklet_8595_40.asp (for food variety only)

 

[Redstrike]

How are things going? You guys doing alright?