I think my sulcata may be sick

[vquev001]

I think Kimora is sick! There are a few things I am concerned about so I took her to the vet.

First let me address my concerns...
(1) I started noticing that the lines that join the scutes are starting to turn pink. It started light pink, but now it's getting a little more pink. She is also starting to get a circular spots that is soft on the bottom of her shell. As soon as I saw that, I started looking online and I became scared that she may have something serious like septicemia or shell rot. I looked on many websites to try to look for suggestions given to others with similar problems and most said to go to a vet. (2) She seems to have respiratory problems because her breathing is very loud and sounds congested. (3) We bought her when she fit in my palm on May 5, 2008 and just over a year later she is about four-five times her original size. We were told she was about 3 mos. when we got her. But she has grown FAST. Other tortoise owners have pictures of their one year old tortoises, and they are tiny compared to her. (4) I am always scared that she may have pyramiding and I think she may have signs of it beginning to happen. If she is pyramiding, I would like for it to stop now while she's young instead of letting it get worse.

So I took her to the vet who claimed he saw tortoises and this is what I was told...
(1) The fact that the bottom of the shell is turning pink is nothing to worry about. (2) The spot on the bottom that is becoming soft is only a bruise. (I didn't know that tortoises could get bruises.) (3) You have to change her diet! You have to give her protein. If you only feed her grass than she will develop a protein deficiency. In the wild they eat bugs to get the protein they need. You should try feeding her dog food or beans!! (Now I may be new at this... but EVERY sulcata website I've read said to avoid these.) (4) She seems to be congested. I am going to show you how to vaccinate her so that you can do it once every 24hrs for ten days. (Do most doctors make you vaccinate your own pets?) (5) This growth rate is to be expected. (6) Pyramiding? What's that? (How can he claim he knows how to treat tortoises and not know what this is?)

I don't think he knew what he was talking about. Can anybody tell me what they think she has? What should I do now? Any signs of pyramiding?
Please help!!

Plastron


May 5, 2008


June 3, 2009
Just about a year later...

 

[galvinkaos]

What are you feeding that baby? Holy cow, I can't believe the growth. I thought only my 12 year old son grew that fast.
I agree the vet doesn't sound like they had a clue about your tort. Unfortunately I do not feel I am not experienced enough to give you good info. But I have to say that it is probably not a bruise. Without more info on diet and housing maybe she needs more calcium and sunlight?? Maggie, and Yvonne and others have vet lists if they are lurking around.

Dawna

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Holy Crap!!! Don't go back to that jerk! Sulcata don't need protein, at all period! What your baby needs for sure is a new Vet...What is he vaccinating her for? Maybe he meant injections for antibiotics. Congestion meant she's got a resp infection and needs antibiotics. So she IS sick and needs decent and correct Veterinary care. She certainly did grow fast, but I would assume that just means she is going to be bigger then most, the red or pink could be septicemia or could be new growth , just new growth. You really do need a new Vet for starters, where do you live? I especially don't like the soft spots, could those be signs of MBD? Please tell us where you live so we can find you a Vet. Danny will come on and make a diagnosis on the plastron...

 

[tortoisenerd]

I'll give some of these a shot...

(1) Find a new vet. That does not sound good at all! A vet seeing torts and a vet specializing in torts is very different. You want one who sees torts daily. Prepare to be willing to drive and pay a lot of money if needed.
(2) Please double check the med and dose with us here before giving it to your tort. I assume you were given an antibiotic. From what you've said and my limited experience then yes it may be necessary (sounds like a likely respiratory infection) for the tort to get it for the breathing to improve. Yes, shots are typically given to owners to give to their tort, especially when needed daily. When the tort is larger like yours it is better because it is easier to get hold of an arm or similar to give it as instructed. Increasing the temperatures a few degrees if possible is a good idea. An antibiotic shot is typical.
(3) I see a little pyramiding starting, not as bad as I have seen though. Read up on this and do everything you can to save smooth shell growth from now on. The key thing seems to be humidity. Diet, exercise, etc, are all secondary causes.
(4) Please do not feed protein. This vet is very ill-informed. Many years ago this was thought to be necessary. Your Sulcata needs weeds, grasses, hay, etc. You are good to doubt this vet. More protein will cause more pyramiding problems. You need to see a vet who specializes in tortoises. What do you feed?
(5) A shell becoming soft is typically bad. What type of UVB does the tort get? Do you replace the bulb (if you have an indoor enclosure, not outdoor in the sun) as required (6 months for tubes and 12 months for MVBs)? What type of calcium? How often? How much?
(6) Fast growth can be a problem, but generally ok as long as it is smooth growth. I have heard of Sulcatas growing very fast like yours--as a species they grow very very fast. Hopefully someone else more familiar with the species can have some advice for you. If you are following a good diet, exercise, and have smooth shell growth, it's not too worrisome.
(7) Please keep a very close eye on your Sulcata. Find a new vet ASAP. With some multiple issues going on this could go bad very quickly. Post your location if you need help finding a new tort vet.
(8) More information about your tort's care including enclosure pictures will be helpful.

Best wishes!

 

[vquev001]

I just want to begin by saying thank you to everyone who has responded! I've learned a lot in so little time.

Before I answer all of the following questions everyone has asked, I do want to say that I feel ashamed because I feel like I am the only one to blame for anything that may be wrong with her. I bought her from a little pet store where she was in a dark little tank with bark chips as bedding. I followed their instructions for care, but now I know I've done wrong. I am here to learn how to change what is not good for her and get her the best life possible.

What are you feeding that baby? Holy cow, I can't believe the growth. I thought only my 12 year old son grew that fast.
I agree the vet doesn't sound like they had a clue about your tort. Unfortunately I do not feel I am not experienced enough to give you good info. But I have to say that it is probably not a bruise. Without more info on diet and housing maybe she needs more calcium and sunlight?? Maggie, and Yvonne and others have vet lists if they are lurking around.

Dawna

(4) Please do not feed protein. This vet is very ill-informed. Many years ago this was thought to be necessary. Your Sulcata needs weeds, grasses, hay, etc. You are good to doubt this vet. More protein will cause more pyramiding problems. You need to see a vet who specializes in tortoises. What do you feed?...
(5) A shell becoming soft is typically bad. What type of UVB does the tort get? Do you replace the bulb (if you have an indoor enclosure, not outdoor in the sun) as required (6 months for tubes and 12 months for MVBs)? What type of calcium? How often? How much?...
(8) More information about your tort's care including enclosure pictures will be helpful.

The people from the pet shop told me to feed her romaine lettuce only and sold me "T-Rex 2:1 Calcium/Phosphorus Supplement Herbivorous Reptile Formula" to sprinkle over all her food once a day. Also told me to put her out in the sun every morning around 11am and not leave her out past 1pm because it would be too hot for her. The enclosure that we bought there was a 20gal tank and she sold me Zilla's Ground English Walnut Shells as the bedding. When I got home, I noticed that this wasn't the bark she was in at the pet shop, so before I put it in the tank, I read the back and I noticed the neither the bark or the walnut shells were for tortoises, so I went back and she sold me alfalfa meal as bedding. As far as lighting, we only had her with a ZooMed Repti Basking Spot Lamp...

About four months later, we went to a reptile shop and they told me that I needed a Zoomed Reptisun 10.0 High Output UVB Bulb and that we had to have it on for at least 12hrs a day and change it every 6mos. They also told me I could feed her other dark leafy greens and that Grassland tortoise food is good for them. (I started feeding her spinach and mustard greens. But I read a few months back that both spinach and mustard greens have oxalic acid compounds that prevent the body from absorbing calcium from food. So I have stopped.)

Back in October, she had outgrown the tank and we bought her a 60gal tank from the reptile shop that told us about the UVB bulb. He still sold us alfalfa meal as the bedding again, but this time he sold us the Zoomed PowerSun UV bulb and to change it every year. However, when I first started worrying about her being sick I read to never buy tanks as enclosures. So I took her out of the tank and blocked off the kitchen so that she has more room and ventilation. She has been there for about 2wks (Again, I'm very ashamed, but I did not know). So I'm trying to find a big commercial size tub that I've seen others have on website posts or see if I should just build her a large wooden enclosure.

In short...
Food: Primarily Grassland with T-Rex Calcium over the top, occasionally dark greens/spring mix. We used to feed her twice a day, but I heard over feeding is bad too. Calcium was only given in the morning.
Enclosure: Was a 60gal tank, but now is my kitchen blocked off still with the PowerSun, looking to build an enclosure with Eco Earth Substrate and playsand 50/50 mix. (I don't have any pictures on hand of the tank we had and the kitchen can be seen in the back of that photo.)

What is he vaccinating her for? Maybe he meant injections for antibiotics. Congestion meant she's got a resp infection and needs antibiotics... You really do need a new Vet for starters, where do you live? I especially don't like the soft spots, could those be signs of MBD? Please tell us where you live so we can find you a Vet. Danny will come on and make a diagnosis on the plastron...

I'm sorry, you're right. I meant he wanted me to give her injections. I took her to the Loma Linda Animal Hospital and the antibiotic bottle they gave me says "5 Baytril/10 Biz," he told me to give her 1cc every 24hrs. He never told me what the antibiotic was but he said it was because she sounded congested, so I haven't given it to her. But I live in San Bernardino, CA. And I am not very familiar with MBD? Can you tell me a little more?

Once again thank you everyone for the help. This website is a godsend!

 

[spring pace]

wow, and i though my guy grew fast adding 6lbs a year, your guy tripled what gali did his first year. what kind of substrate are you using for him? is he still an inside resider w/ some time outside? galileo has some pyramiding, started when he was about 2yrs old and went on for almost a year before i got the situation under control, now his new growth is smooth and the bumps are looking smaller, though they will always probably be evident. i didnt see any growth lines on the carapace, i wonder if his plastron is growing faster? hope you find a better vet for your beautiful boy. id up his temps, at his size he could tolerate 100 degrees as long as he has shade and humidity for his resp problems. a cuttle bone in his habitat would be beneficial too. high fiber, long dark greens, grasses and hay to eat exclusively is a must for his daily diet. has he been checked for parasites? what do his poops look like? i hope you can get this fixed soon. galileo & spring sending angels

 

[Yvonne G]

Of all the things you've said, the soft spot would be the one that I would worry about the most. Yes, it is possible to bruise a tortoise shell, a horse's hoof, etc...but this doesn't cause it to become soft. Your "little baby" is huge! for her age. She NEEDS to be outside most of the time now, not in the house. I'm thinking that that soft spot is due to her not absorbing the calcium because of lack of sunshine. Where you're pointing is usually where it starts.

Your doctor said the animal needed protein...well, she IS getting protein...just not animal protein. All of the grasses, weeds, dark leafy greens and pellets that you are feeding contains protein. Sulcata don't require animal protein for a healthy body, but they DO require the sunshine to make Vit.d for their calcium. And if your light bulb is old, she isn't getting what she needs from it.

Yvonne

 

[Crazy1]

vquev001, I use the Loma Linda Animal hospital and have been very pleased with Dr Sigstad (sp?).
He questioned my Lil'Bit having enough protein but I explained she gets plenty of plant protein. I asked him if he would suggest animal protein and he said never she was a herbivore. So you can understand my surprise he suggested meat for your Sully. There is Dr. Brothers at 1731 E. Highland Ave., San Bernardino 909-889-0093 She is the vet that the Tortoise and Turtle club suggests using and they take their torts to her. Her office also suggested Dr DeCarlo on Sierra Way and 40th st. his Office visit $32.00. I can get his info for you if you like? (It’s at home). Both Dr Sherry Brothers and Dr DeCarlo have been treating torts for years as has Dr. Sigstad (sp?).

I would be inclined to think she was probably eating the alfalfa meal which helped her with her rapid growth. I am glad you found us and are working on giving her better living conditions and a better diet. If she has a RI she will need to get up off the floor as they can be drafty (especially if you have air conditioning) and have her heat increased by about 5 degrees. It is easy to make a wood enclosure for them a few nails or screws and some boards and polyurethane. And a shower curtain or tarp does the trick. The worst is it takes some time to let the polyurethane dry well. But she is big enough to be outside right now as the weather here has warmed considerably. And she would more than likely love being outside now. She is large enough to allow her to stay outside 24 hours now. As long as she has places to get out of the sun and water available. My DT and Greeks are out 24 hours a day now.
I too would be worried about the soft spot on her plastron.
Here are a couple of health problems that could be in the making for your little one. Calcium deficiency caused by not enough sun, (to make D3) (or fed foods that blocked the absorption and use of calcium) or too much excessive phosphorous. Both these will cause soft shells. Pyramiding which is also associated with too much protein (perhaps eating the alfalfa meal?). A visit to the veterinarian for blood sampling would be advised.
Sulcatas are prone to respiratory infections. Not only must the illness itself be treated, but the tortoise's environment and diet. Symptoms of respiratory infection include nasal discharge, watery eyes (occurs in cold weather only), loss of appetite, and lethargy. The animal will require treatment with antibiotics as well as supportive care, including warm temperatures.
Any vet can do a culture to see what bacteria a tort has in order to better treat it. And in the case of Calcium deficiency, Phosphorous excess or protein excess a blood sample should ID these also.

Here is a site that tells of the Health issues etc.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1260&S=4&SourceID=57

 

[vquev001]

There is Dr. Brothers at 1731 E. Highland Ave., San Bernardino 909-889-0093 She is the vet that the Tortoise and Turtle club suggests using and they take their torts to her. Her office also suggested Dr DeCarlo on Sierra Way and 40th st. his Office visit $32.00. I can get his info for you if you like? (It’s at home).

I had seen Dr. Brothers on websites, but they didn't seem to have any appointments any time soon and referred me to the Loma Linda Hospital. I will try to schedule an appointment soon. If you feel comfortable with the other vet, I would like his information as well. $32 sounds a lot better than the $99 I paid for Dr. S. Should I give her the antibiotics Dr. S prescribed her? I wasn't too sure if it was the right thing for a RI.

If I were to put her the back 24hrs a day, the sprinklers automatically go on twice a day. Is this ok for a tortoise or would I have to stop watering the grass whenever she was out there?

Again thank you everyone for all of the responses!! Any further suggestions would be appreciated. They are all being listened to.

 

[aktech23]

My sully loves to play in the sprinklers.

 

[spring pace]

how is kimora doing today? galileo & spring

 

[Crazy1]

Animal Care Wellness Center
3928 N. Sierra Way (cross street 40th)
909-883-6464
Dr. DeCarlo
He is only there in the AM.

I did like him.

 

[egyptiandan]

I'm here finally

All the pink is just fine and the small spot is probably where she rubbed off some scute material.

With her growing as fast as she is, her calcium need is very great. She's growing bone quicker than she can add calcium to them, so they will be a little soft. She needs access to calcium all the time. A cuttlefish bone or you can make a ball of plaster of paris for her to eat. These should be in her enclosure all the time.

A new vet is in order

Danny

 

[spring pace]

hmmmm. never thought of plaster of paris, it has the same properties as cuttle fish?

 

[Crazy1]

The $99.00 you paid at Dr. S I would think included the meds and syringes. Which for a first visit isn't really bad. My first visit at a different vet was over $400.00 and they didn't even do a culture. Dr. DeCarlo was caring and he listened to what I had to say. Though their is nothing that can be done really for a tort so tiny a Lit'Bit other than what they already have done. As far as the meds you may want to wait until you get an appointment at the new vet. If they suggest the Baytril injections then let them know you already have the meds. I'd call Dr. Brothers and Dr. DeCarlo and see which one you can get into faster. Let them know at Dr Brothers that she has a pick soft spot on her plastron. When I called last week she was at training but was due back last Tuesday. I will be calling Dr DeCarlo today re Lil'Bit and see if I can actually talk to him. That will be a big test to see if I can get him on the phone.

 

[Gulf Coast]

How is kimora doing today? I hope she is feeling better and you are finally getting some much needed answers..

 

[drgnfly2265]

Wow, your tort got big fast! Bowser maybe doubled his size in a year and I thought that was fast.

And please don't go back to that vet. He definitely does not know what he is talking about!

I hope Kimora feels better soon. Good luck!

________________________________________________________

Jamie

1 Sulcata (Bowser)
1 Shih tzu (Suki)

www.myspace.com/bowsertortoise

 

[vquev001]

Kimora is doing just fine. Eating a lot like always. Loving every bite!

I must have horrible luck with the vets. I've called during my breaks at work and even during my lunches, and I either get a busy signal or I believe once I had the option to leave a message. Today is my day off... I am determined to speak to someone!!

I'm here finally

All the pink is just fine and the small spot is probably where she rubbed off some scute material.

With her growing as fast as she is, her calcium need is very great. She's growing bone quicker than she can add calcium to them, so they will be a little soft. She needs access to calcium all the time. A cuttlefish bone or you can make a ball of plaster of paris for her to eat. These should be in her enclosure all the time.

A new vet is in order

Danny

This makes me feel a lot better! Especially since I haven't been able to get through to schedule an appointment yet.

Thank you!!

---

Spoke too soon!!

Just got an appointment to see Dr. DeCarlo on Tuesday, July 7th.

 

[Crazy1]

Good I hope Kimora is OK, and you get answers from Dr. DeCarlo

 

[vquev001]

Good I hope Kimora is OK, and you get answers from Dr. DeCarlo

Thanks! I am so glad you were able to provide me with this vet.

I will keep you updated with what he says.