JSWallace
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Oh just seeing you're in Sheffield, I'm in Derby. nearly makes us neighbours!!
Hatchlings.
- Thread starter Anyfoot
- Start date
If your interested in some, your welcome as long as you can put my mind at ease that you will look after them correctly.
JSWallace
Well-Known Member
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- Mar 5, 2017
- Messages
- 911
Lovely idea but no I don't really have the right set up here for them. I just have one adult Russian
@Markw84 . A while back we were discussing one of my torts that developed a deep crevice, the thoughts were that stress of moving it to a new enclosure caused a halt in growth(maybe through not eating for a while). I wasn't happy. Anyway the deep crevice filled in and growth continues in good shape. This guy is around 10 months now. I don't know if it's coincidence or not, but as the deep crevice appeared it coincided with the torts plastron also getting hard, growth slowed down too. He now seems to be growing on again. Is there a point when growth apparently slows up but in actual fact other things are developing within the tort during this seemingly halt in growth?
I've noticed my clutch of 9 that are now 7 months old(ish) are also developing this same deep crevice, hoping it's just a stage they all go through and not the start of pyramiding, these 9 have been in the same enclosure since day 1 so no moving to cause stress is involved.
I couldn't remember what thread we were discussing this in originally.
This is the one that developed a deep crevice a few months back.
I've noticed my clutch of 9 that are now 7 months old(ish) are also developing this same deep crevice, hoping it's just a stage they all go through and not the start of pyramiding, these 9 have been in the same enclosure since day 1 so no moving to cause stress is involved.
I couldn't remember what thread we were discussing this in originally.
This is the one that developed a deep crevice a few months back.
Any thoughts on this please.
My first clutch was of 9. This I think is the worst one regarding smoothness of Carapace. All 9 IMO seem to be developing a large growth crevice. I've soaked every day up to 6 months and then on every other day, sprayed twice a day and humidity is 90% minimum within my tort house. They are around 8 months now. UVB provided from day one, mixed diet of weeds, flowers,fruit and mushrooms, occasionally feeding protein.
Is this just part of the growth cycle or the start of pyramiding. It's driving me mad.
If it is pyramiding developing I can only think of a few things....
1,Maybe them basking in the light through window. (Drying out)
2,Growing too fast.
3, keeping them too wet.
Any thoughts welcome.
To try and reassure myself I looked back at a photo of my three 3 yr olds. Following photos are the three as babies then the middle one as an adult. All 3 look smooth now.
Am I seeing the same growth pattern with the 9?
My first clutch was of 9. This I think is the worst one regarding smoothness of Carapace. All 9 IMO seem to be developing a large growth crevice. I've soaked every day up to 6 months and then on every other day, sprayed twice a day and humidity is 90% minimum within my tort house. They are around 8 months now. UVB provided from day one, mixed diet of weeds, flowers,fruit and mushrooms, occasionally feeding protein.
Is this just part of the growth cycle or the start of pyramiding. It's driving me mad.
If it is pyramiding developing I can only think of a few things....
1,Maybe them basking in the light through window. (Drying out)
2,Growing too fast.
3, keeping them too wet.
Any thoughts welcome.
To try and reassure myself I looked back at a photo of my three 3 yr olds. Following photos are the three as babies then the middle one as an adult. All 3 look smooth now.
Am I seeing the same growth pattern with the 9?
xirxes
Active Member
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- Apr 26, 2017
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- 175
That is a lot!
You may want to get a good feel for the market and start advertising them around at 2 months and we'll started, at least on your first season to be sure that you don't have issues moving them.
That is unless you can keep the 3 year experiment up on 32 littles!!
You may want to get a good feel for the market and start advertising them around at 2 months and we'll started, at least on your first season to be sure that you don't have issues moving them.
That is unless you can keep the 3 year experiment up on 32 littles!!
Craig
Have you been regularly weighing them? Do you have a record of growth every month or so? I will see this happen when there is a period of slow growth following faster growth. In a sulcata that is what creates the "growth rings". Fast, monsoon season growth expands out and grows smoothly, but when things dry out and growth slows, the resulting ridge is created. I've also seen it in tortoises growing smoothly, that become sick, or with a high parasite load. Once healthy and start growing again, a ridge is often created from the slow-growth period. Even people will sometimes develop ridges in the fingernails from bouts with illness. Fast growth is not a problem. A dramatic change in growth rate can be.
The other times I see this do seem to be related to ones that tend to bask longer and this would seemingly dry out their carapaces more than their enclosure mates. Some are more active, while others tend to spend much more time pushed under a bush or in a humid hide. I am currently paying a lot of attention to this and so far it seems to be that generally the ones that bask and are more active tend to not be as smooth as the ones that stay "protected" more.
As far as subtle differences in overall smooth vs slight "pyramiding" I can't help but believe genetics plays a role.
I remain convinced that diet does not contribute to this other than to the extent it would be allowed to change growth rates - dramatic changes in diet.
Have you been regularly weighing them? Do you have a record of growth every month or so? I will see this happen when there is a period of slow growth following faster growth. In a sulcata that is what creates the "growth rings". Fast, monsoon season growth expands out and grows smoothly, but when things dry out and growth slows, the resulting ridge is created. I've also seen it in tortoises growing smoothly, that become sick, or with a high parasite load. Once healthy and start growing again, a ridge is often created from the slow-growth period. Even people will sometimes develop ridges in the fingernails from bouts with illness. Fast growth is not a problem. A dramatic change in growth rate can be.
The other times I see this do seem to be related to ones that tend to bask longer and this would seemingly dry out their carapaces more than their enclosure mates. Some are more active, while others tend to spend much more time pushed under a bush or in a humid hide. I am currently paying a lot of attention to this and so far it seems to be that generally the ones that bask and are more active tend to not be as smooth as the ones that stay "protected" more.
As far as subtle differences in overall smooth vs slight "pyramiding" I can't help but believe genetics plays a role.
I remain convinced that diet does not contribute to this other than to the extent it would be allowed to change growth rates - dramatic changes in diet.
Mark. I've not bothered weighing these other than a few days ago to see if this sudden growth crevice appears at a regular stage within the redfoot species. This one is 160g.
I've maintain the same care throughout, nothing has changed other than their size. Out of the clutch of 9, 5 spent first 3 wks in a vivarium and 4 went straight into this enclosure, so really they have all lived in this enclosure with no change. I could kick myself for letting a window bring in a variable (basking spot), and what's worse is I did actually think about it from the start. Aboutcarapaces month ago I blocked the light and heat coming in through the window, just incase that's playing a part.
Maybe the ridge is magnified because the tort is still small, also this photo does make it look worse.
I agree it wouldn't make sense that diet would make a difference in Carapace shape, every Tortoise in the wild isn't going to get equal parts of the same thing, there must be a vast difference in redfoots diet across South America.
Just a few thoughts on your comment on basking and activity levels versus pyramiding.
A tort that hides away in fear of becoming prey will be less active, not bask and eat less, slow growth and a humid Carapace could be the result. The tortoise that is active and risks going out to bask gets eaten.
This could(big could) also explain why occasionally there are minor pyramided torts in the wild, some basked with high activity for a while and got away with not being eaten, maybe low amounts of predators in that area at that specific time.
All this leads back to my annoying nagging thoughts on D3 from UVB as a baby.
Anyway, all I can do is watch and learn with these 9. BTW I just looked at my records and these 9 are now 9 months old now, not 8.
@Anyfoot Craig, I feel a lot of why we see some pyramiding of tortoises in the wild is a result of human encroachment on habitat. It has been happening for 100's of years now. EXCEPT for with sulcatas. You will not see any truly wild sulcatas with pyramiding, yet they are extremely prone to it in captivity. That is a clue...
Human encroachment normally means more and more cultivated land closer and closer to tortoise popluations. Especially in areas like India, and in particular Sri Lanka. It seems in Sri Lanka most wild tortoises show some pyramiding now, and probably has for some 100s of years now. And, according to @kingsley in his search for remaining populations, a main threat is the loss of habitat to agriculture. Many of the tortoises are now found and killed in agricultural areas by farm equipment. But in the Sahel, there is not encroachment of agriculture, but instead encroachment bring herds of cattle and even further desertification.
So the agricultural expansion brings with it an availability for nutritious foods for a tortoise in times when normally there would be no nutritious food available. = Growth in Dryer times that would normally not support growth. So the tortoises can continue to grow through times it normally would be aestivating with little to no growth.
In the Sahel of Africa, we have no expansion of agriculture. We have expansion of herds. And to this day we see no pyramided sulcatas in Africa. There has been no change to the availability of food through the drier times of year.
Human encroachment normally means more and more cultivated land closer and closer to tortoise popluations. Especially in areas like India, and in particular Sri Lanka. It seems in Sri Lanka most wild tortoises show some pyramiding now, and probably has for some 100s of years now. And, according to @kingsley in his search for remaining populations, a main threat is the loss of habitat to agriculture. Many of the tortoises are now found and killed in agricultural areas by farm equipment. But in the Sahel, there is not encroachment of agriculture, but instead encroachment bring herds of cattle and even further desertification.
So the agricultural expansion brings with it an availability for nutritious foods for a tortoise in times when normally there would be no nutritious food available. = Growth in Dryer times that would normally not support growth. So the tortoises can continue to grow through times it normally would be aestivating with little to no growth.
In the Sahel of Africa, we have no expansion of agriculture. We have expansion of herds. And to this day we see no pyramided sulcatas in Africa. There has been no change to the availability of food through the drier times of year.
That makes sense.
I was thinking about the filling of bone structure again.
In the tortoise I posted earlier you can see there are crevices between the coastal scutes, and actually the vertebral scutes look the smoothest at the moment. If the ribs start inline with the coastal areola and bone structure develops from there, then as the bone fills out to the coastal scute boarders it could push the crevice into a flatter plane with the adjacent scute. This means at this early stage when bone structure is still developing and is quite supple we must keep the keratin supple so bone can grow into it's natural path. We are basically making sure the keratin is always more supple than the new developing supple bone. Once the bone structure is hardened off then it's not as necessary to keep the keratin as supple because the bone is naturally the dominant one and follows the given path that earlier conditions dictated. This is proved when at a later stage the males of some redfoot localities get the waist band. At this sub adult stage you would think the bone structure is hard, but yet the shape of the scutes can be manipulated due to the bone being the more dominant when hard.
Your thoughts on that please.
A few photos on mushroom day, makes me laugh, the brave come down to the feeding plates, and the others either peak over the moss or congregate in the corner waiting for the food God. They learn and become tame over time, something I imagine would be life or death in the wild.
Craig
At such an early age, and small size, I think perspective distorts a bit of what we see. What turns out to be a ridge, Initially can look to be the start of pyramiding. Also, to me what I see in your new 9 babies looks like the initial thickening of the the entire scute. As a baby, there is growth and thickening that needs to occur as a baby does not hatch out with the Scute already at full thickness. So while most all new keratin is laid down mostly at the scute seams, with a baby, that serves to thicken the entire scute. As they grow, that will then lead to only the edges where we see the effects of new growth.
Bone is actually quite pliable and especially when its young and growing bone, easily deflected. Also consider that the bone seams do not align at all with the scute seams, especially the costals, where a single scute will cover a few bone plates. So the fontanels will only sometimes be under a scute seam, while other scute seams will be above bone.
Let me offer a drawing I did to illustrate the approximate alignment of where scute seams "fit" over the actual individual bones... Scutes on left, bones on right.
Thanks Mark for the effort you put in to explain things, that all made sense. We shall see how mine grow.
Did you actually draw that drawing?
@Markw84 would the thickening of the entire scute also answer why some species that start out with sunken scutes like the homeana hingeback later grow out smooth. My homeana at around a yr old are starting to smooth out.
Typical weed and flower feed.
In here there is....
Dandilion
Clover
Sow thistle
Narrow leaf Plantain
Red valerian
Primrose
And what ever this is.
In here there is....
Dandilion
Clover
Sow thistle
Narrow leaf Plantain
Red valerian
Primrose
And what ever this is.
This morning surprised us with this. Biggest we've had at 32g.
I think one of our Brazilian babies is showing signs of marbling. These 2 are siblings. 
Flower power. 
I hate pyramiding
How are yours coming along @Octavious22. Any photos we can look at.
