Hatchlings.

[Anyfoot]

Had 3 hatch over the last couple of days. 1 of which is a first for one of my females, I expected it to be lighter in color, the female and both males are yellow. There is another of hers pipping too, so 2 out of 6 eggs from her.(4 being duds)
The other 2 are from a clutch of 7, the remaining 5 eggs look OK too.

The hatchling in middle and on left are siblings. They are also in the last photo.

 

[BILBO-03]

They are so pretty!

 

[Pearly]

Omg!!!!! So precious!!!! Congratulations Craig!

 

[allegraf]

I like the extra dark one! Isn't this the second one you hatched like this? They re all so cute!

 

[Anyfoot]

I like the extra dark one! Isn't this the second one you hatched like this? They re all so cute!

It's the third dark one. The first one died. The second one has no color what so ever. It's growing very slowly, eats like a horse but just won't grow like the others. See how this one goes. Just got another pipped from same clutch too.

 

[Pearly]

It's the third dark one. The first one died. The second one has no color what so ever. It's growing very slowly, eats like a horse but just won't grow like the others. See how this one goes. Just got another pipped from same clutch too.

They sure are very pretty! I too love those "Dark Knights" of yours

 

[Stuart S.]

Congratulations! That's incredible!

 

[Redstrike]

Look at those little hard tops! Very nice contrast with the yellow on black. Great work!

 

[Anyfoot]

Got 4 now, last one had more orange areola, I'm amazed at the different colors coming from same clutches. I have a 5th one hatching, he seems happy day there looking out of the egg for a bit. Hoping to get a 6th so I can raise in two groups of 3.
1st 4 are in their enclosures. Keeping it simple. Heat and humidity comes from within this room.
I have a UVB strip light to put over one of the enclosures, feeding strictly weeds and flowers 5 days a week, mushrooms 1 day a week and protein in the form of worms/slugs/snails and other bugs from the garden 1 day a week, no fruit to each group.

The only place to hide is in the moist moss and they will be soaked once a day for 15mins to eliminate any doubt that no UVB causes any bumpy growth.
Let's see how different they grow getting D3 from diet and diet with UVB.
This will put my mind at rest one way or the other regarding VIT D intake. If the ones without UVB don't thrive then we know that neonates come out into the sunlight in the wild, or at least where foliage is not dense enough to block UVB, if they thrive then in my mind it casts doubts on a few things, diet being one of them, thats why I'm giving no fruit for a while, I can't imagine that a piece of fruit drops right next to every single neonate that may well be hidden away, but foliage and fungi with bugs on it, yes.
Something else, do we know if the neonates go exploring for fruits to grow fast at such a young and vunrable stage to get out of the
' being eaten from predators' quicker stage of life, or would they hide away and keep as small as possible for as long as possible to keep inconspicuous.
Or would they hide away keeping super moist whilst eating foliage and protein(bugs etc) to grow fast and also keep hidden.
We soak our torts to keep them smooth, what happens in the wild? Do we really think every neonate across South America happens to have a puddle to sit in every day, I can't see it, what I can see is sporadic torrential rainfalls create super moist micro climates that are rich in foliage, fungi and bugs so they don't have to go out being vunrable and dried up by intense heat from the sun. Then there's the possibility of partial shade etc.
My mind goes round in circles trying to iron out the minor details of what happens. Everything is connected to everything.
So to prove if they can grow healthy without UVB in the early days opens many thought processes on what happens in there first few months in the wild for me.

Something else I thought about too. Do you think that we humans can dictate the metabolism rate of torts, I've noticed my slower growing juveniles still carry on growing slowly even though they have access to plenty of food, they eat just enough then mosey on. Where as the ones that were greedy from day one just keep growing and growing at a fare old pace.

 

[Anyfoot]

Think I need higher sided tubs and opaque. Climbing at just over a week old.
I now have six hatchlings, so three on each enclosure.

 

[Shaif]

Absolutely gorgeous.

 

[motero]

i grew out three leopard tortoises with no artifical UVB, They had out side time once or twice a week and grew up fast and strong, mostly on Mazuri ( which has D3 added) and weeds.

Are you saying you are going to grow them up with zero UVB?

 

[Redstrike]

They are beautiful

 

[Shaif]

Great thoughts. I will be watching to see what you learn about the uvb. What is your end point? Will you go from weight gain comparisons, plastron strength, or something else? I have read about torts in the same habitat, exposed to the same food and uvb with random cases of bmd, so I'm confused too. Thank you in advance for any knowledge you share or teach us.

As for your thoughts on metabolism, I do wonder if it is a genetic/programmed disposition. Much like people, my torts all have different appetites and different sizes. All are exposed to the same amount of food. I see the very same phenomenon with human patients. Siblings exposed to identical intake digest and metabolize at different rates. They also vary in appetite and perceived hunger.

Please keep us posted!

 

[Anyfoot]

i grew out three leopard tortoises with no artifical UVB, They had out side time once or twice a week and grew up fast and strong, mostly on Mazuri ( which has D3 added) and weeds.

Are you saying you are going to grow them up with zero UVB?

3 with UVB and 3 without, everything else will be identical.

 

[Anyfoot]

Great thoughts. I will be watching to see what you learn about the uvb. What is your end point? Will you go from weight gain comparisons, plastron strength, or something else? I have read about torts in the same habitat, exposed to the same food and uvb with random cases of bmd, so I'm confused too. Thank you in advance for any knowledge you share or teach us.

As for your thoughts on metabolism, I do wonder if it is a genetic/programmed disposition. Much like people, my torts all have different appetites and different sizes. All are exposed to the same amount of food. I see the very same phenomenon with human patients. Siblings exposed to identical intake digest and metabolize at different rates. They also vary in appetite and perceived hunger.

Please keep us posted!

My end point is can they thrive without uvb, not so we don't use uvb, I always have a strip light type for my source of uvb. But if they do this could answer many questions on there habits and diets at such a delicate age.
I don't believe that the tiny hatchlings come out into the open in the wild, why would they have to if D3 came from bugs/slugs etc. Why would they risk getting prayed on.
If I end up with 3 torts with MBD even though I've fed correct D3 protein then it's 100% fact that they have to venture into the sun at some stage, but why would this happen if we carers are having to go to the extreme of soaking a tort to grow smooth. The heat of the sun is fighting this hydration.
If they do get D3 from diet they can hide away in wet/moist undergrowth growing smooth because they are constantly in contact with wet foliage, no amount of air humidity compares to being sat in moist soil with a hood of wet foliage resting on the Carapace. This also then makes me think about diet at a young age, if hidden away what's the chances of every tort finding fruit.
Foliage with bugs on it would be high on the menu you would have thought, maybe fungi too.
Every morning when I pick weeds I see at least half a dozen small slugs in the weeds, I wonder how much that figure is multiplied in hot humid tropical climate.
I wanted to do it with some eggs I have in the ground, but about 200 days later they still have not hatched, this would have eliminated the first 2wks (ish) of their life in fresh like our captive hatched.
I would have thought the ultimate goal is to raise every single tort smooth as a wild one for everyone. It's obvious the first few months of life are so critical to achieve this.

One last thought that something Tom made me think about quite a while back is:-.

In the wild do they stay small and hide away for as long as possible in fear of being eaten?
Or do they venture out eating good stuff trying to gain weight to get big and get out of the vunrable stage as fast as possible.

Hiding in the undergrowth eating foliage and Protein (bugs etc) would achieve fast growth with a lower risk of being eaten. (Best of both worlds).

Either way I'm enjoying this hobby.

 

[Anyfoot]

i grew out three leopard tortoises with no artifical UVB, They had out side time once or twice a week and grew up fast and strong, mostly on Mazuri ( which has D3 added) and weeds.

Are you saying you are going to grow them up with zero UVB?

Mine won't be getting any outside time what's so ever for the first 6 months at least. I can provide more than enough space for 6 little babies to exercise indoors.

 

[Anyfoot]

This is one I raised with 2 others. The other 2 look good but not as good as this one. They are now 3yrs old, this one is just reaching the 7" SCL mark. For the last yr they have lived in my large indoor enclosure, it's 80%+ humidity levels(it takes your breath away soon as you walk in), I've not soaked these in about a yr now, they have a pond they go in and they do use it from time to time, many times I go in and see they've got a wet ring up the Carapace where they've been in the pond. The substrate is top soil with orchid bark,leaves and Cyprus mulch on. I struggle to provide dense foliage cause they destroy and eat everything. I've purposely not washed this tort so you can see him/her in my natural state. The smooth growth is not changing at all, it's grown a good 1" to 1.5"in the last 12 months. She's heavy and healthy, walked very strong. So at 2yrs old(or 5.5 to 6" SCL) they are hard, they are no longer vunrable to the pyramiding phenomenon to the level they need soaking or moist foliage rich hide holes(doesn't mean they should not have foliage hides though).
Why my other 2 are not as smooth is a mystery.
One thing I've noticed with my eleven 4 month old babies are they all seem to have a perticular spot they sleep in. I provide mounds of moist moss and hides with moss in. The ones that use the hides more often than not just lay on the moss in the hide because the hide offers security, the others are forced to dig through the moist piles of moss and bury into the moist coir below. They are sat with moss resting on the Carapace keeping wet because it's the only way to feel secure without a hide. Is this why my three 3 yr olds are not all perfectly smooth. Some dug in and some slept on moss in hides. I'll just keep observing.
We know from this one at 5.5 to 6" SCL they probably venture out because the drying of the Carapace is not as much of an impact. Question is at what size do they not need babying any more.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

Great, thoughtful posts. I'm definitely eager to follow the results of your hatchling experiments.

 

[Redstrike]

This is one I raised with 2 others. The other 2 look good but not as good as this one. They are now 3yrs old, this one is just reaching the 7" SCL mark. For the last yr they have lived in my large indoor enclosure, it's 80%+ humidity levels(it takes your breath away soon as you walk in), I've not soaked these in about a yr now, they have a pond they go in and they do use it from time to time, many times I go in and see they've got a wet ring up the Carapace where they've been in the pond. The substrate is top soil with orchid bark,leaves and Cyprus mulch on. I struggle to provide dense foliage cause they destroy and eat everything. I've purposely not washed this tort so you can see him/her in my natural state. The smooth growth is not changing at all, it's grown a good 1" to 1.5"in the last 12 months. She's heavy and healthy, walked very strong. So at 2yrs old(or 5.5 to 6" SCL) they are hard, they are no longer vunrable to the pyramiding phenomenon to the level they need soaking or moist foliage rich hide holes(doesn't mean they should not have foliage hides though).
Why my other 2 are not as smooth is a mystery.
One thing I've noticed with my eleven 4 month old babies are they all seem to have a perticular spot they sleep in. I provide mounds of moist moss and hides with moss in. The ones that use the hides more often than not just lay on the moss in the hide because the hide offers security, the others are forced to dig through the moist piles of moss and bury into the moist coir below. They are sat with moss resting on the Carapace keeping wet because it's the only way to feel secure without a hide. Is this why my three 3 yr olds are not all perfectly smooth. Some dug in and some slept on moss in hides. I'll just keep observing.
We know from this one at 5.5 to 6" SCL they probably venture out because the drying of the Carapace is not as much of an impact. Question is at what size do they not need babying any more.

I've had a similar experience with my 4. One just seems to grow extremely smooth while the other three have had some minor bumps along the way. All are in the same conditions.

The variables I'd love to explore are genetics, pecking order as it relates to microclimates/behavior, and stress (corticosteroids - again tied to pecking order). I lack the necessary time, resources,funding, or sample sizes for this...