The 'tail wagging' thread has become a discussion of emotions in tortoises, which certainly is a debatable topic if there ever was one!
We have people making claims that animals cannot reason, thus have no emotions (if I am reading it correctly) and others claiming that their tortoises have deep emotions.
Before this gets too deep, I will point out that part of the problem is going to be definitions. What IS an emotion? Is it a behavior triggered by a specific stimuli? A reasoned response to something? Somehow related to a soul? Different people are going to approach this differently.
I do not think anyone would argue that tortoises don't feel pain, hunger, discomfort, an urge to mate, a preference for one food over another, etc.- but are these emotions or just instinctive behavior? Is there a difference?
Terry/Redfoot NERD asked "Aren't humans the only living thing that have the ability to reason.. isn't that what makes humans different???" This represents a widely held belief that there is something about humans that makes us different than animals.
While there may be a difference between humans and animals, reasoning does not seem to be it- many animals have shown the ability to solve problems and reason- like chimps solving logic puzzles, gorillas combining symbols to express complex ideas, and crows (was it crows?) fashioning tools to reach into complicated termite mound entries. Dolphins and orangutans confound keepers frequently by doing amazing things they figured out in their spare time.
I fully agree with Terry that we do some dumb or even bad things to tortoises and other animals because we project our emotions onto them, but that is our problem and does not mean that they do not have some emotions of their own.
What do you think?
We have people making claims that animals cannot reason, thus have no emotions (if I am reading it correctly) and others claiming that their tortoises have deep emotions.
Before this gets too deep, I will point out that part of the problem is going to be definitions. What IS an emotion? Is it a behavior triggered by a specific stimuli? A reasoned response to something? Somehow related to a soul? Different people are going to approach this differently.
I do not think anyone would argue that tortoises don't feel pain, hunger, discomfort, an urge to mate, a preference for one food over another, etc.- but are these emotions or just instinctive behavior? Is there a difference?
Terry/Redfoot NERD asked "Aren't humans the only living thing that have the ability to reason.. isn't that what makes humans different???" This represents a widely held belief that there is something about humans that makes us different than animals.
While there may be a difference between humans and animals, reasoning does not seem to be it- many animals have shown the ability to solve problems and reason- like chimps solving logic puzzles, gorillas combining symbols to express complex ideas, and crows (was it crows?) fashioning tools to reach into complicated termite mound entries. Dolphins and orangutans confound keepers frequently by doing amazing things they figured out in their spare time.
I fully agree with Terry that we do some dumb or even bad things to tortoises and other animals because we project our emotions onto them, but that is our problem and does not mean that they do not have some emotions of their own.
What do you think?