Cross breeding Greeks.

[Jlant85]

I was wondering, can you cross breed greek tortoises? If so, what two Greeks subspecies can be compatible?

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Why do you want to cross two Greek torts .Its like buying a toy poodle w/papers to breed with a beagle with papers

 

[wellington]

It's not looked upon as a good idea by most. Other then that, others with more experience will have to answer you question.

 

[Jlant85]

Why do you want to cross two Greek torts .Its like buying a toy poodle w/papers to breed with a beagle with papers

It just came to mind. dont know why you have to be so rude about it.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Why do you want to cross two Greek torts .Its like buying a toy poodle w/papers to breed with a beagle with papers

I'm afraid it's much more serious than that. All dogs are domestic wolves in the subspecies Canis lupus familiaris. Dog breeds were developed through artificial selection, most several hundred years ago, a few several thousand years ago. Actually, mixing dogs usually results in healthier offspring, and not just "mongrels."

In contrast, the different types of Greeks out there are from different subspecies of Testudo graeca, and have been isolated for tens to hundreds of thousands of years. Each one is adapted to a different climate, with moisture, temperature, and brumation profiles.

If you mix different subspecies, you will get fertile, viable offspring. However, they will lose the special adaptation they've evolved in the Middle East, North Africa, and Eastern Europe. For this reason, mixing subspecies should be avoided unless absolutely necessary to save the lineage.

 

[Jlant85]

Why do you want to cross two Greek torts .Its like buying a toy poodle w/papers to breed with a beagle with papers

I'm afraid it's much more serious than that. All dogs are domestic wolves in the subspecies Canis lupus familiaris. Dog breeds were developed through artificial selection, most several hundred years ago, a few several thousand years ago. Actually, mixing dogs usually results in healthier offspring, and not just "mongrels."

In contrast, the different types of Greeks out there are from different subspecies of Testudo graeca, and have been isolated for tens to hundreds of thousands of years. Each one is adapted to a different climate, with moisture, temperature, and brumation profiles.

If you mix different subspecies, you will get fertile, viable offspring. However, they will lose the special adaptation they've evolved in the Middle East, North Africa, and Eastern Europe. For this reason, mixing subspecies should be avoided unless absolutely necessary to save the lineage.

I've always heard about how they would mix subspecies to save a lineage. But how safe is it. I know golden greeks and iberas are actually a bad match. The reason for that is that "golden greeks" seem to be laden with infectious organisms that don't affect them but are lethal to other subspecies and species.

 

[blueturtle]

I'd really like to know this too. I have a golden Greek and think i might want to breed her years from now. I wouldn't want to cross breed different greeks but how can you be sure you're not by accident? I've read a couple times on here that golden greeks aren't even a real subspecies but just a color description. years from now if i want to breed her, how would i know I'm not inadvertently breeding two different subspecies that both just happened to be classified as"golden"?

Don't mean to hijack the thread but feel my question is a bit relevant to the original posters question.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using TortForum mobile app

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

I don't thick it's rude to break it down to very simple terms but if you do I'm sorry

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

I've always heard about how they would mix subspecies to save a lineage. But how safe is it. I know golden greeks and iberas are actually a bad match. The reason for that is that "golden greeks" seem to be laden with infectious organisms that don't affect them but are lethal to other subspecies and species.

Right. The best match is another member of the same subspecies (barring inbreeding). However, sometimes a subspecies is so endangered, that the only way to save it is by mixing. In that case, you should use healthy animals to avoid the kind of contagion you mentioned above. You should also try to mix the endangered subspecies with its most closely related subspecies. That way, hopefully you will still retain as many of the adaptations as possible.

As you say, it would be bad to mix southern and northern Greeks (such as Golden and Ibera), to prevent both disease transmission, and the loss of adaptations to hot, humid and cold, dry environments, respectively.

I'd really like to know this too. I have a golden Greek and think i might want to breed her years from now. I wouldn't want to cross breed different greeks but how can you be sure you're not by accident? I've read a couple times on here that golden greeks aren't even a real subspecies but just a color description. years from now if i want to breed her, how would i know I'm not inadvertently breeding two different subspecies that both just happened to be classified as"golden"?

Golden Greeks typically belong to the subspecies Testudo graeca terrestris, which is native to Israel and Jordan. Not all tortoises from there look like that, but most tortoises that look like that tend to be from there. That said, it is true that some "Golden Greek" tortoises are not T. graeca terrestris, but rather Greeks from other subspecies with that appearance. Besides coloration, though, you can also identify tortoises by their scute and scale patterns, etc.

Unfortunately, the pet trade is full of animals whose lineage is not known. This can be due to intentional mixing or hybridization, but it can also be due to poor record-keeping, or simply not knowing the origin of one's animals. It's great when we know the precise taxonomy of our pet, but that's not always possible.

 

[Jlant85]

its weird how come im seeing black greek tortoise also labeled Iberas? Black greek testudo greaca ibera to be more exact. can they breed properly w/ the regular iberas?

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

its weird how come im seeing black greek tortoise also labeled Iberas? Black greek testudo greaca ibera to be more exact. can they breed properly w/ the regular iberas?

The black coloration appears to be found more often in high-altitude populations of T. graeca ibera. It could be an adaptation to absorbing solar heat more rapidly in the cold mountain air.

You could mix mosaic-colored Iberas with black-colored Iberas, but here's where it gets tricky. Some breeders not only want to make sure they get the same subspecies, they also want to breed from the same population or close to it. As I've said, it's extremely hard to know exactly where tortoises come from, but the rationale here is to preserve the adaptations tortoises have evolved in a specific habitat type. In principle, this is a good practice.

However, the danger is that you could get inbreeding depression, because only so many tortoises from a given area have been imported. In the wild there could be a breeding population of many hundreds to thousands. In captivity, all the tortoises of a certain type could have descended from only a few dozen individuals, maybe even just a single pair! Not giving them the chance to outcross could increase the incidence of genetic disorders. So, that's the tradeoff.

Mountain tortoises would be unlikely to breed with lowland tortoises, but a little mixing could naturally take place in the wild. So, you could justify crossing black Iberas with mosaic Iberas on the grounds that some outcrossing is good for the individuals and their subspecies. It's not necessarily possible to totally mimic wild breeding patterns in captivity.