Blackfish the documentary on Sea World tonight at 6 and 9

[Tom]

The rights of animals to live free from human exploitation and abuse.

That totally says it all for me. Thank you! I don't think I have anything more to say on this subject.

What is exploitation in your mind Terry? Is eating a chicken exploitation? Is enjoying a pet exploitation? Does this depend on whether or not money changed hands? Is a tortoise rescuer not an exploiter, but a tortoise purchaser is an exploiter, even though both love and care for their tortoises incredibly well?

And abuse? I once thought this was so simple to define and understand, but I've been proven wrong by the assertion of other members of our society. Animal rights groups believe that simply confining a dog on my premises constitutes slavery and abuse. Cookie trainers (dog trainers who rely only on positive reinforcement and nothing else, ever...) accuse me of abuse for using a correction collar to literally save the life of the monsters they create with their well intentioned ignorance. Am I an abuser for jerking the crud out of an aggressive dog with a choke chain in order to save it from the euthanasia needle? Tell me Terry, would that dog be better off dead than receiving some stern corrections from an experienced dog trainer?

You know that I love you. This is not an attack. This is a conversation between two friends that have differing opinions on a subject near and dear to our hearts. I want to understand where your lines are drawn and I want you to understand where your lines are drawn and who you are standing with, and who you are standing against.

 

[Turtlepete]

@FLINTUS,
Quick question. To have such a detailed and passionate opinion, surely you must have some real experience in the topic at hand, am I right? How many years did you work in a zoo? Did you train exotics for the film industry, perhaps? How about orcas, have you ever visited SeaWorld? Worked as a marine biologist? Ever owned a lion, tiger, leopard, or any big exotic? Your house-cat doesn't count.
Or is your entire opinion solely based off of a biased documentary, google-yielded search results and a strong attribution of human emotions to the poor orcas which are several thousand miles away from you?
If the aforementioned case is applicable to your "opinion", there may be an issue.

 

[leigti]

Well, if I follow Tom's definition then I am definitely on the animal welfare side of things. I do think that the word "rights" is applicable to humans but not to animals. And we humans can't even agree on the rights that fellow human beings have. That does not mean that humans are above or better than animals in my opinion.
I think people are easily manipulated by media nowadays. It is so much a part of our lives that many of us have lost the ability to look critically at something or to dig deeper than just the surface. Any advertising is a form of propaganda, no matter how transparent and organization tries to be they are still twine to sway your opinion towards them. That doesn't necessarily make it bad however. Before giving money or supporting an organization I think people should look into it a little more.
I also feel that personal experience is very important and how a person forms their ideas and opinions. It is not fair to be criticized for an opinion based on knowledge and first-hand experience.

 

[terryo]

OK....my stand is very simple Tom. It may seem contradictory to you. I have been to Sea World, and have left in tears with my children. I wanted them to see what I saw, but let them do research and decide for themselves how they felt about it. I hate seeing those animals in such a small tank, when they should be free in the ocean. I don't stand on any side. That is just my opinion.
Years ago I worked with primate rescue, and seeing infant primates taken from their mothers when they were only hours old, to be sold was horrible. The hallway was lined with incubators with two day old infants where I was. The females were kept in sound proof rooms where they screamed for hours when their babies were taken from them. Heartbreaking. I am totally against selling primates for profit because of this. Some of these babies were bought my couples that couldn't have children. They came with baby clothes, diapers, bottles, just like they were adopting a new born human child. This was sick to me. Just my opinion.....
When I was a child my Dad would take me to the circus (the man was way before his time) to show me the Elephants, chained to large tree like poles, and then made to perform. He taught me that this was the cruelest form of abuse in his opinion. So, I'm against Circus's for this reason.
I'm on the fence about Zoo's because I've been to some horrible one's, where the large cats were in small enclosures and circled for hours and banged their heads on the wall. I've been to the Bronx zoo where the animals were in good condition and had plenty of roaming space. So, I'm not against all zoo's.
I can't even think about meat slaughter houses without throwing up. I'm glad I don't eat meat for this reason.
The animal shelter where I live is NO KILL and is clean and they have volunteers who come and walk the dogs and they have big runs to play and get exercise. Not so bad.
I am a vegen because my health was suffering and my son made me try changing my diet. It worked, and I'm doing good today because of it. That is the reason I don't eat meat or dairy.
So, I really don't know what category you would put me in Tom. I have fought for animal rights for many years. So, am I for animal rights, or animal welfare? I believe that every living thing deserves respect.....animals and humans. I fought many years for primates in testing facilities, and breeding farms. Is that animal rights or animal welfare? I don't know......
As for you Tom, and what you do for a living......I never really thought about it in a bad way. Maybe because I respect you so much, and know your animals are well taken care of. I truly don't believe I am a hypocrite. I don't believe that any animal is better off dead. I have turtles now that I'm taking care of that were treated so poorly that my vet said they might not make it, but I'm not giving up on them.
I don't know how to train dogs.....I still can't train my three little rescues....so you would know better than me about whether to train using a cookie or a choke chain. I would never criticize you on how you train your animals. So, I guess that's where I stand. I think we've been through this before Tom, you and I.
I have no idea what category you would put me in. Those are just some of the things I believe in.

 

[FLINTUS]

Ok, probably my last post on the subject:
I do have little first-hand experience compared to Tom, although do know many people who have that experience. And yes, the media can easily manipulate people's views; I am not a supporter of PETA, but I do believe that @Tom needs to recognise that Sea World and other zoos do the same 'horrible manipulation' of a young child to get them to support a cause/give money.
However, as above, I do think that there is a distinction to be made in the terms we are using here. I would not regard myself specifically as an animal rightist(never have in this thread), and like you I do support animal welfare-although where that line falls is questionable. So under your (too generic for me) definitions, I am not meant to be in support of a 'propaganda film'. However, you said yourself that you've not actually watched Blackfish? It is factually pretty correct-moreso than most of these 'propaganda films', and while there is the usual emotive pictures, it does provide an accurate portrayal for one-side of the argument. Therefore, it supports my views that orcas should not be kept in captivity, unless there is a huge change to the conditions. Is that, under your definition of killing animals, animal rights? I do still believe that there are good organisations who support animal rights, and I can link some organisations if you wish? That said, your definition is not what the actual definition is, rather than how PETA in particular has taken it on, and I think it is worth recognising that.
Something else that I wished to add to the earlier post about experience vs regulations but couldn't edit it: I would be very surprised if the US was so lenient on cetaceans in captivity by 2050.

 

[dmmj]

I guess I am proud to live in a country where I can choose to go to sea world, or choose not to go.

 

[terryo]

Yup! That's the best way to look at it, David. I agree.