Turtlepete
Well-Known Member
Hypocrite…Ignorant..
Blackfish the documentary on Sea World tonight at 6 and 9
- Thread starter Candy
- Start date
Hypocrite…Ignorant..
So much for a civil debate with no name calling. FYI I keep three domestic animals (dogs...all rescues who were mistreated and abused) and Box turtles that cannot be introduced back into the wild. All my box turtles were turned into a rescue and were given to me, except for two Gulf Coasts that were also given to me. After a box turtle is kept for a year they cannot be put back into the wild. These are the only animals I have. My tortoises were re homed to a warm climate so they never have to come in for the Winter again. (poor me....lucky them) I am also a vegen who eats no meat or dairy. I am neither a hypocrite or ignorant. My life is an open book..... I was also into primate rescue at one time. You have no idea of the mistreatment of these intelligent animals.....but that's another story.
Turtlepete
Well-Known Member
I am not calling anybody in specific names, only naming the mindset of the groups of people Tom is referring to. I was not referring to anyone specific within this thread. To advocate for and side with animal rights groups (who firmly state they believe no animal should "suffer" captivity) whilst keeping any living animal is hypocritical. This is the dictionary definition, not my personal feelings. To believe every institution which showcases animals and turns a profit for it is evil and doesn't have any benefit towards animals is ignorant. This is proven when you consider all of the information (not animal-rights circulated propaganda) and come to a conclusion based on factual evidence. Once more, ignorance would be the dictionary definition of this mind-set.
I have no ill-will towards any of the individuals I am describing. More often than not they are well-meaning, typical people. My only wish is they would broaden their research and not allow emotions to factor into their decisions when they go out to boycott whatever is trending on twitter.
I have no ill-will towards any of the individuals I am describing. More often than not they are well-meaning, typical people. My only wish is they would broaden their research and not allow emotions to factor into their decisions when they go out to boycott whatever is trending on twitter.
I wanted to respond to this thread but I don't know where to start. Even just glancing through it I partly agreed with almost everything said. I think the problem is that this is not a black and white issue, no pun intended :-( there are a whole a lot of areas of gray. I have major issues with many so-called animal rights organizations, and yet I also greatly appreciate those people that can honestly give their own blood sweat and tears to help animals, or constantly try to educate people.
You would think that I would be describing the same group of people but sadly it often is not that clear cut. If I firmly pick one side or the other I am going to be a hypocrite.
You would think that I would be describing the same group of people but sadly it often is not that clear cut. If I firmly pick one side or the other I am going to be a hypocrite.
Wrong. Picking a side does not make you a hypocrite, as long as you are not doing what you are advocating against. Advocating against animals in captivity while KEEPING your own animals in captivity is hypocritical.
You, like most people, certainly like everyone who is a member on this forum, want animals to be treated well, respected, cared for properly, and given humane care and treatment in every way. We ALL agree on this and this makes us ALL advocates of ANIMAL WELFARE.
ANIMAL RIGHTS is something completely different than this. Not even remotely related. Opposite end of the spectrum. Animal rightists believe that animals are better off dead than in human hands. They believe meat, ANY meat, is MURDER and should be a crime. They think dog trainers and animal trainers (Me) are evil and should be shut down by any means possible legal, ethical, or NOT.
There is a quiet war going on right now. Its been going on for years. Most people are not even aware of it. People like me are busy earning a living, enjoying my time with friends, family, my animals, and generally trying to have a good quality of life. I have little or no time to fight a war and go after the people trying to destroy me and my profession and my hobbies and get my animals banned and taken away from me. My opponents on the other hand, have made a profession of slandering me, anyone like me, and Sea World. Its their job to come in every day and figure out new and creative ways to make us look bad in the public eye, turn the public against us and get horrible freedom destroying laws passed. They don't care what means they have to stoop to to do it. Even if they have to torture and harass animals to do it. The end justifies the means in their mind. Do an internet search about PETA throwing M-80s at the circus elephants so they could film the aftermath of the trainers trying to calm the herd after the giant explosion goes off.
They make horrible heart-wrenching commercials and pamphlets to get good, kind, honest people with nothing but good intentions to give them money to "help the animals". Instead their shelters kill more animals than the government run shelters. Instead they BMWs, Mercedes, and multi-million dollar mansions and laugh at how stupid the people who gave them the money are. Not joking here and not making it up. The general public has good intentions, but they have been largely duped by the animal rights media machine. Sea World and people like me spend our time tending to the animals. Animal rights groups spend their time and money making films like the one in this thread while I'm bust trying to have a life. Ruining my life, and yours, is their life's work.
By the time people realize what is really going on, it will be too late. Spread the word. Support animal welfare, NOT animal rights.
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2015
- Messages
- 2,379
I'm truly not trying to be funny or someone who goes back on what they said because someone else disagreed with it, but thank you for clarifying that. It's definitely cleared up some things for me and I see a lot more research in my future. Thank you!
I guess that animal rights and animal welfare are two different things. The second part of my post was about animal welfare but I wasn't using that term. Maybe other people make my same mistake and use the terms interchangeably. My friends who use guide dogs, and I will soon be one of those guide dog handlers, have been harassed and had their dogs harassed for just doing their jobs. Even for just sitting at a coffee shop quietly. I hate PETA and everything they stand for and always have, I always felt they were an extremist group and people didn't realize it. And yet I also wish that sea world would stop breeding killer whales and make a better habitats for the ones they do have. I think sea world has done and continues to do some very good things as well. I personally do not want to see world to go away just like I don't want zoos to go away but I think they can do better as far as caring for their own animals. Especially the very large ones. I think no kill shelters for the most part are propaganda machines. I did not make friends at the local shelter when I politely told them that when they changed over. But I pay them my money for a dog license every year and I didn't hesitate to call when the dog next door was being neglected. Hypocrite? Maybe. So there's the gray area.
I watched blackfish, I'm not going to watch it again.
I watched blackfish, I'm not going to watch it again.
Tom, where do you get these things from? I am all for animal rights. I've been involved and been a bit of an activist in my much younger days, but I have never felt or thought the things you have posted and no one I worked with thought that.
They think dog trainers and animal trainers (Me) are evil and should be shut down by any means possible legal, ethical, or NOT.
My God! I don't think anything like that at all. No one that I ever worked with in any kind of rescue thought things like that. Who are you talking about? If you're talking about PETA, then yes they have an agenda that isn't acceptable at times. But not every one who is for animal rights feels that way.
. Animal rightists believe that animals are better off dead than in human hands.
I don't know anyone that thinks that either. Do you think people who are fighting to save the orca's think they are better off dead? You sound so angry and upset that I really feel bad now.
I think that every animal on this earth deserves some rights. Do you not think that the primates that are locked up in cages and are made to feel pain every day of their lives don't deserve some rights? Have you ever been to any of these facilities and seen first hand how they are treated? I have. I have seen things that I can't even talk about. But NEVER have I worked with or knew anyone who felt that these animals were better off dead. I know people who have suffered and lost everything to save them and give them a better life.
I'm sad that you feel so angry about this, but you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that, and you should respect other people's opinions even if they don't agree with yours.
Some people, like myself, keep animals that should be in the wild, (box turtles) because there is no other alternative for them. So we try to mimic their natural environment as best we can, but we are not hypocritical.....or ignorant Some people are vegans because they feel it is a more healthy way to live.
Animal rightists believe that animals are better off dead than in human hands. They believe meat, ANY meat, is MURDER and should be a crime.
I am for animal rights and I don't feel this way at all, and neither do any of my friends and family who are vegans. You should not generalize statements like this because all people who want rights for animals don't feel this way. I certainly don't. .
They think dog trainers and animal trainers (Me) are evil and should be shut down by any means possible legal, ethical, or NOT.
My God! I don't think anything like that at all. No one that I ever worked with in any kind of rescue thought things like that. Who are you talking about? If you're talking about PETA, then yes they have an agenda that isn't acceptable at times. But not every one who is for animal rights feels that way.
. Animal rightists believe that animals are better off dead than in human hands.
I don't know anyone that thinks that either. Do you think people who are fighting to save the orca's think they are better off dead? You sound so angry and upset that I really feel bad now.
I think that every animal on this earth deserves some rights. Do you not think that the primates that are locked up in cages and are made to feel pain every day of their lives don't deserve some rights? Have you ever been to any of these facilities and seen first hand how they are treated? I have. I have seen things that I can't even talk about. But NEVER have I worked with or knew anyone who felt that these animals were better off dead. I know people who have suffered and lost everything to save them and give them a better life.
I'm sad that you feel so angry about this, but you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that, and you should respect other people's opinions even if they don't agree with yours.
Some people, like myself, keep animals that should be in the wild, (box turtles) because there is no other alternative for them. So we try to mimic their natural environment as best we can, but we are not hypocritical.....or ignorant Some people are vegans because they feel it is a more healthy way to live.
Animal rightists believe that animals are better off dead than in human hands. They believe meat, ANY meat, is MURDER and should be a crime.
I am for animal rights and I don't feel this way at all, and neither do any of my friends and family who are vegans. You should not generalize statements like this because all people who want rights for animals don't feel this way. I certainly don't. .
Not speaking for Tom but I think he is making a distinction between animal-rights an animal welfare. To me you sound like you are for animal welfare.
As @terryo said, you seem to be getting rather defensive over this. I have no problem with dog-training, although I am still against non-domesticated 'show' mammals, although luckily Europe experimented with that long enough ago to realise what problems can result of this.
I feel like you are still missing the point; not all animal rights activists are like the above. I don't agree with PETA, but to quote a dictionary definition, animal rights is defined as:
The rights of animals to live free from human exploitation and abuse.
That is not what you are describing above. There are many animal rights groups who are free of corruption, free of terrorism etc.
Furthermore, you seem to have assumed that all of us who are anti Sea World are pro-animal rights. I would personally see myself in the animal welfare category, if you wish to distinguish the differences that way.
I'm sorry that you feel threatened by these so called 'murderers', but realistically, I too am not for exploitation for profit of non-domesticated animals. And tbh, training animals for films is exactly that. You do it because you enjoy it, but you also do it, like most people, because it pays well. Sure you might get a couple of kids interested in some strange creature, but at the end of the day, that is not why the film, or Sea World for that matter, was created.
PETA have committed some horrible crimes against animal welfare; so have Sea World and other 'training-related' organisations for show. Your point?
Sea World again makes those pamphlets to 'manipulate' young children, no different from PETA, but the difference is that many animal rights organisations do not do that. I do however, strongly dislike the distribution of money in PETA.
At the end of the day Tom, most countries that have had large, wild animals in captivity have seen where the problems lie and banned it, not causing too many problems for the rest of us. Civilisation evolves with experience, but in N.America, probably due to the lack of a colonial presence for the most part, these non-domesticated animals are a relatively new thing in history. Eventually, when these accidents continue to happen, something will need to be done...
Oh geeez That xpans it all. We jus to unevolvd to no de write ting 2 do here in de colonies.
Defensive? Well when one is under attack, isn't defense what is supposed to happen? I don't think you understand. There is an entire segment of society who have made it their daily job, their passion, their life's work to end my career, my passion and my life's work. While I am busy going about my life's work, these people are busy trying to shut it all down. Its not even a fair fight since the attack while I'm busy trying to earn a living. People like you, people with good intentions toward animals, are HELPING them do it because they don't understand what is really going on and what the real end game is.
Some Europeans clearly have different ideas about what the role of government is and ought to be compared to the ideas of most Americans. That is the reason we had a horrible bloody revolution. To get out from under this sort of "Big Brother knows best" sort of attitude. If you like being told what to do at every turn, then you are in the right place. Personally, I prefer to make my own decisions, rather than have my government make them for me.
As far as the value of live animals for educational purposes, we could argue that all day. You don't seem to see much value in it the way you imagine it, but I'm telling you that as one of those children exposed to this, the positive impact is profound. I didn't read about it. I don't imagine what I think it is like and what the effects are. I LIVED it.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it is worth discussing where these opinions come from and what they are based on. What do you base all your assertions on? News stories? Things you read or saw on TV? Things the media and government want you to see? Or do you have any first hand personal experiences with these sort of animals? You demonstrate a strong emotional reaction to this subject so surely you know first hand about what goes on with these professional animal trainers and what goes wrong with these "incidents" you speak of. Tell me, what is the source of your opinions and feelings on this matter?
I will tell you where my opinions and info come from: It has been my paid profession to raise, train and care for all manner of exotic animals since 1986. Birds, fish, reptiles, mammals, insects, amphibians... Am I leaving any out? I know hundreds of other people who do the same thing including some of the trainers that work at Sea World and really know what goes on there. Every single day hundreds or thousands of these captive animals are handled, trained and worked with and there is no incident. No disaster to sensationalize and put on the news. Are there disasters from time to time? Yes. How could there not be. Every once in a while a mother decides to kill her own children. A man in China went crazy and stabbed a whole bunch of people. Thousands of innocent children drown in 5 gallon buckets every year. So do we ban parenthood, kitchen knives and 5 gallon buckets? No. No we do not. Every profession has accidents, bad apples, and the odd incompetent person. Mine is no different. when the crane operator makes and error, someone dies. Do we want to ban cranes and put crane operators out of work? Cops have negligent discharges of their firearms regularly. Sometimes resulting in death or injury. Should we fire all the cops and take away their weapons?
These ultra-sensationalized incidents that hit the news are NOT the norm. Every single day, I and my peers handle and interact with these animal and nothing bad happens. but since it doesn't serve their purposes nobody publicizes all the things that DIDN'T and DON'T happen. Think about it...
So let me ask you now, who has a better perspective what really happens on a day to day basis with these kind of animals in captivity?
The rights of animals to live free from human exploitation and abuse.
That totally says it all for me. Thank you! I don't think I have anything more to say on this subject.
That totally says it all for me. Thank you! I don't think I have anything more to say on this subject.
Here is what I was doing two days ago. Working on a TV show in Louisiana. I'm here with my dogs and some of my friends are here with a couple of leopards and a serval. These guys have been handling lions, tigers, bears, elephants, etc... for more than 20 years. You have never heard their names or seen them on the news. In these pics we took the leopards out for a walk on our day off. This is on private property near where we were filming. Know why you didn't see or hear anything about this walk with the leopards? Because nothing newsworthy happened. Just like nothing newsworthy has ever happened in any of our 20+ year careers. No one was attacked. No animals were abused. One of the leopards is 18 years old and nearing retirement. If you've seen a spotted leopard on camera in the last 17 years or so, its probably been this one. All of our animals go this way. They live their whole lives with us, doing gig after gig with no incident...
A little tree climbing fun. This was a beautiful sight to see. Things like this are what make our job "worth it".
Here is the cats owner horribly abusing and torturing the kitty. 4 years old and still acting like a kitten...
You see a problem here? You want to end this? You want to take our animals away and end our life long dreams and careers?
Hell yes, I'm defensive.
Am I a villain? Am I an animal abuser? Am I an animal exploiter?
If you answered yes, to any of these, then we have a philosophical difference of opinion about life in general that will NOT be resolved. If you answered yes to any of these questions, then you are my enemy and I will fight you to the death to protect what I hold near and dear.
A little tree climbing fun. This was a beautiful sight to see. Things like this are what make our job "worth it".
Here is the cats owner horribly abusing and torturing the kitty. 4 years old and still acting like a kitten...
You see a problem here? You want to end this? You want to take our animals away and end our life long dreams and careers?
Hell yes, I'm defensive.
Am I a villain? Am I an animal abuser? Am I an animal exploiter?
If you answered yes, to any of these, then we have a philosophical difference of opinion about life in general that will NOT be resolved. If you answered yes to any of these questions, then you are my enemy and I will fight you to the death to protect what I hold near and dear.
Last edited:
My post wasn't meant that way at all-more along the lines of rules and regulations generally appear after countries have experienced them, and the US(or Canada, or Mexico, or China for that matter), hasn't had these animals come into the country long enough to see the full effects. And yes, to counter Tom's inevitable reply, I do recognise that animal welfare has evolved in that time, but it is a general theme over history that those who experience it longer are the first to do something about it.
I'm not going to bother responding to the individual points now as you are in denial, but I will make this clear: I am not attacking you specifically, but I just do not agree with non-domesticated animals being exploited. Of course, if an ideal habitat could be created for orcas at Sea World that would be great, but it is almost impossible. There is much more scientific evidence citing that orcas(and lions for that matter worldwide), are generally worse off in captive environments.
I appreciate the bad incidents are not the norm, however they do happen, and at the very least, more space would improve this. However, I do think that you have had your thoughts slightly clouded by your (passionate) beliefs on this topic. Read over what you have written and you too will find that it is not particularly comprehensible for one to understand the actual points you are trying to convey, rather than a plethora of unrelated references-and for the record, police carrying guns is not something I'm a fan of either...
I appreciate the bad incidents are not the norm, however they do happen, and at the very least, more space would improve this. However, I do think that you have had your thoughts slightly clouded by your (passionate) beliefs on this topic. Read over what you have written and you too will find that it is not particularly comprehensible for one to understand the actual points you are trying to convey, rather than a plethora of unrelated references-and for the record, police carrying guns is not something I'm a fan of either...
The problem with that definition is that people have their own definitions of what exploitation and abuse is. And you or me or anybody else can have a view totally different on what the definitions are. And trying to compare how different countries deal with it is too big to even discuss here.It seems like people on this thread are trying too hard to say how they are on one side or another, and then insulting the other side. If we can all agree that we love animals and care about how they are treated by humans then I think we have some common ground.
That is just it. We HAVE that common ground and we ALL agree that animals should be treated well. Everyone on this thread and on this whole forums an advocate of ANIMAL WELFARE. The problem is ignorance. People don't know what the ANIMAL RIGHTS movement is all about and what they really stand for. The majority of people who side with these radicals and donate the money that allows them to accomplish their nefarious goals do so out of ignorance. They've been duped. These poor people are trying to help animals and they want animals to be treated well and cared for. Animal Rights groups don't want animals cared for at all. They opine that animals are better off dead than in human care at all. They show pictures of adorable puppies and kittens in cages with sad music and people send them money. Doesn't everyone want to help the puppies and kittens? Again. Look at the facts. Kill ratios in Animals Rights group funded shelters are far higher than other shelters. They want them dead, not in homes where people will "enslave" them. That is why they kill them instead of adopting them out.
It is my intention in typing all this to demonstrate these facts. If you love animals and want them treated well, then the animal rights movement is not for you. If you want shelter animals to go to loving homes, then the animal rights movement is not for you. If you want people to learn about and take good care of their pet tortoises, then the animal rights movement is not for you. All of the above tenants are tenants of ANIMAL WELFARE. If animals have the same rights as humans then they can not be eaten, sold, owned, caged, enclosed, trained, etc...
I assert that animals should be well cared for, respected, handled and housed appropriately. I strongly disagree that every ant and cockroach should have the same rights as me and everyone reading this.
If nothing else is accomplished here, I want people to know the difference between human rights and taking good care of animals. We can argue forever about what is the most "appropriate" way to house killer whales, dogs or tortoises. I doubt two people will ever 100% agree on all of that, but can we agree that the fly bothering you at your dinner table, or the chicken on your dinner table does not have the same rights as my child?
I am in denial? I base my emotions and opinions on decades of first hand experience with the subject matter, while you base yours on media reports of incidents and reading animal rights propaganda, and you think I am the one in denial? I beg to differ.
I still don't know what constitutes exploitation in your mind. Is that leopard in my pictures being exploited? Are our tortoises being exploited? Is the person who made money by selling you your tortoise guilty of animal exploitation? Is it money changing hands that upsets you? If I hunt game with raptors, an endeavor that can in no way involve money changing hands, is that exploitation?
Citations? I have no doubt that researchers on both sides of this issue can find hundreds of citations to support their views. I LIVE this life daily and have for decades. What experience do you have with captive lions other than what an animal rights group told you? Have you seen how lions are housed by the people I know? Do you have any idea what kind of life they have?
How on earth would more space prevent an incompetent person from having an "incident" with an animal? You think that a happy killer whale in a giant pool wouldn't toy with its human trainers? You are wrong. You think a lion in a 50,000 hectare enclosure wouldn't eat the first person it came across? Wrong again. I saw the bloody evidence in South Africa. The lion enclosure was so huge that you could not see the fence on the other side because of the curvature of the earth. You are sounding like someone who wants whats good for animals, but doesn't really know about what is good for animals. Can you tell me I'm wrong and that you have some first hand experience handling lions, or maybe working behinds the scenes at a facility that houses big cats of any kind?
Not germain to this discussion, but I am curious... What would you have police officers carry when they are going to possibly have to confront armed criminals who want to kill them and/or other people?
Similar threads
