Band-Aid Theory

[Madkins007]

Tom- these are my thoughts, for what they are worth.

1.) You say that even with all this you are only getting 50% humidity generally and 70% in the enclosed habitats. Since most homes are 30-50% relative humidity to start with, I would suggest that this would be evidence that your 'over-the-top' approach IS INDEED 'balancing'. Your natural temps and humidity need heroic efforts to provide what might be considered to be a reasonable ambient humidity.

2.) The side effects I would watch for in your set-up would be in the actual scute development, as Andy suggested (thin, weak scutes). In other settings, where the method you describe would result in much higher humidity levels, I would be concerned about environmental shell rot, mold and mildew formation, lung/respiratory issues, etc.- but these would be because of the high ambient humidity for tortoise species unused to it.

3.) Over-hydration would be 'water intoxication', which can be fatal in some circumstances. Not that this will happen to the tortoises in your situation, just pointing out that there are consequences to too much of something just as there are consequences to too little.

4.) I am still wondering about Andy's concerns about bone density. He can be annoying sometimes, but the guy usually knows what he is talking about. If torts are not pyramided, but still have spongy bones, I would still say they have a form of MBD.

 

[John]

and so were clear my post is a question not an attack on an idea or person.

 

[dave_and_angie]

[/quote]
Let's see the hands of the 'newbies' out there that really care about all of this
TEK
[/quote]

* Hand Raised *

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Why not research the tortoises natural habitat and keep accordingly? What's so hard about that?

-Matt

Matt that's too simple. Those in my peer group have been practicing what Tom is demonstrating for [ once again ] decades! "Keep them like they live".. in the wild. I knew they - those science heads - would continue on...

TEK

That works for me, proven and consistant.

 

[mike1011]

hello all, I am not debating the humidity thing but just throwing in that with the humidity and moist substrate comes as madkins007 pointed out the very high risk of plastron infections. The substrates in these types of settings(which I also use) must be sanitized daily with chlorhexidine or equivalent and changed regulary. O.K. enough said continue with the fighting!

 

[Yvonne G]

When the big wigs go out into the field to study tortoises and their habits, they don't ever see baby tortoises, so most of the "scientific" info we have on tortoises talks about the larger tortoises. Tom's "study" concerns baby tortoises.

 

[Benjamin]

When the big wigs go out into the field to study tortoises and their habits, they don't ever see baby tortoises, so most of the "scientific" info we have on tortoises talks about the larger tortoises. Tom's "study" concerns baby tortoises.

"Big wigs" generally are not out in the field. Those are mostly students.

 

[PeanutbuttER]

Why not research the tortoises natural habitat and keep accordingly? What's so hard about that?

-Matt

From what I understand the difficulty comes from the fact that nobody has done this sufficiently. Tortoises aren't a big money-making research opportunity, so they don't get studied often. Even when they do get studied it's primarily the behavior of adults that get studied, not that of hatchlings which is what would be more telling as far as pyramiding prevention is concerned. What's more the studies seem to be interested in only 1 locale of tortoises at a time which makes it even harder to project the results onto all of the species.

"SUFFICIENTLY"????? This happens to be one of the few "common-denominators" among virtually all of the commonly kept tortoises today. ALL tortoises seek a hide to sleep in that is more humid than their surroundings. Ask anyone who has ever dug one out of their hide.

Of course there are always those that claim they have kept theirs the same way Tom did for the first 20 years of his tortoise keeping life..... and theirs are perfectly smooth.

You misunderstood because my sentence was kinda ambiguous. I meant to say that the research hasn't been sufficient on wild populations, not that people haven't sufficiently tried their best to emulate their understanding of wild parameters.

Are you talking out of both sides of your mouth PB. Say what you mean and there's less chance of being misunderstood.

Do you believe that those of us that have in fact demonstrated what an ample amount of humidity/hydration - backed with pics - can do.... just might be what these different species of tortoises require "in the wild"? Do you need a list of us? A very few occasionally post here.. more seldom do anymore.. and there are several who never will because of the "Scientific Rhetoric" that goes on here.

Let's see the hands of the 'newbies' out there that really care about all of this yaddayadda -

TEK

Terry, I did say what I meant. That sentence can be taken two ways: the way I meant it and the way you took it.

As far as "raising them as if they're in the wild", well I don't think that's really possible right now and I doubt very highly that you yourself are doing this. Where do they get dry cat food in the wild for instance? For that matter, when does the wild food god toss greens in their wild fenced-in enclosures? Yeah we can mimic humidity based on probes that aren't in burrows but you and I both know that is not the same.

I am not saying that in the wild hatchlings have one set of environmental parameters or another, but I am saying that nobody knows. The research and field work just doesn't exist yet in sufficient amounts. Plus for many species there really isn't anyone doing the research (that I'm aware of at least) so I don't see a time when we fully understand "wild-based" husbandry based on actual observation instead of speculation. Or perhaps you have spent years studying redfoots in their natural habitat and you are the expert. If not, then you and I (yes I the lowly "newbie") are on the same level and are both providing care according to our own speculation. Yes we find things that work, but we don't know how or why. So we continue them, but unless we use "science" we're not going to find out if there is something that works even better.

Now can we be done with your cryptic spouting of "anti-scientific rhetoric" and get back to Tom's actual question please?

 

[zzzdanz]

Yes we find things that work, but we don't know how or why. So we continue them, but unless we use "science" we're not going to find out if there is something that works even better.


Perfectly said!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

From what I understand the difficulty comes from the fact that nobody has done this sufficiently. Tortoises aren't a big money-making research opportunity, so they don't get studied often. Even when they do get studied it's primarily the behavior of adults that get studied, not that of hatchlings which is what would be more telling as far as pyramiding prevention is concerned. What's more the studies seem to be interested in only 1 locale of tortoises at a time which makes it even harder to project the results onto all of the species.

"SUFFICIENTLY"????? This happens to be one of the few "common-denominators" among virtually all of the commonly kept tortoises today. ALL tortoises seek a hide to sleep in that is more humid than their surroundings. Ask anyone who has ever dug one out of their hide.

Of course there are always those that claim they have kept theirs the same way Tom did for the first 20 years of his tortoise keeping life..... and theirs are perfectly smooth.

You misunderstood because my sentence was kinda ambiguous. I meant to say that the research hasn't been sufficient on wild populations, not that people haven't sufficiently tried their best to emulate their understanding of wild parameters.

Are you talking out of both sides of your mouth PB. Say what you mean and there's less chance of being misunderstood.

Do you believe that those of us that have in fact demonstrated what an ample amount of humidity/hydration - backed with pics - can do.... just might be what these different species of tortoises require "in the wild"? Do you need a list of us? A very few occasionally post here.. more seldom do anymore.. and there are several who never will because of the "Scientific Rhetoric" that goes on here.

Let's see the hands of the 'newbies' out there that really care about all of this yaddayadda -

TEK

Terry, I did say what I meant. That sentence can be taken two ways: the way I meant it and the way you took it.

As far as "raising them as if they're in the wild", well I don't think that's really possible right now and I doubt very highly that you yourself are doing this. Where do they get dry cat food in the wild for instance? For that matter, when does the wild food god toss greens in their wild fenced-in enclosures? Yeah we can mimic humidity based on probes that aren't in burrows but you and I both know that is not the same.

I am not saying that in the wild hatchlings have one set of environmental parameters or another, but I am saying that nobody knows. The research and field work just doesn't exist yet in sufficient amounts. Plus for many species there really isn't anyone doing the research (that I'm aware of at least) so I don't see a time when we fully understand "wild-based" husbandry based on actual observation instead of speculation. Or perhaps you have spent years studying redfoots in their natural habitat and you are the expert. If not, then you and I (yes I the lowly "newbie") are on the same level and are both providing care according to our own speculation. Yes we find things that work, but we don't know how or why. So we continue them, but unless we use "science" we're not going to find out if there is something that works even better.

Now can we be done with your cryptic spouting of "anti-scientific rhetoric" and get back to Tom's actual question please?

PB I never got away from Tom's question. I stated that there will be those that cry that unless it can be proven "scientifically" then it is not 'safe' or could have side-effects that could be fatal.. or something - and you and a few others have said exactly what we knew you were going to say.

It can't be "scientific" if/because we don't have the time or resources or numbers or willingness to subject the animals to what [ they've already been subjected to that hasn't worked ] it would take to be a scientific experiment. So we do what Matt suggested and find out what the basic environment is that each tortoise lives in and do our best from there. Common sense is important too.

So you don't think it's possible or doubt I [ and others ] are doing it the way they live in the wild. We must be doing something right.. they're happy enough to make babies. And I have been for many years.. ( various turtle/tortoise species ) off and on since 1975. Does that make me a scientist?

So far not one has said how providing humidity/water in the mix can be dangerous. So let's keep it in context and answer Tom's question.. anyone?

TEK

 

[Tom]

Why not research the tortoises natural habitat and keep accordingly? What's so hard about that?

-Matt

Hi Matt. I did this post late last night and it directly addresses your question.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Wise-Words

Always glad to hear from you.

---

Why not research the tortoises natural habitat and keep accordingly? What's so hard about that?

-Matt

From what I understand the difficulty comes from the fact that nobody has done this sufficiently. Tortoises aren't a big money-making research opportunity, so they don't get studied often. Even when they do get studied it's primarily the behavior of adults that get studied, not that of hatchlings which is what would be more telling as far as pyramiding prevention is concerned. What's more the studies seem to be interested in only 1 locale of tortoises at a time which makes it even harder to project the results onto all of the species.

I would also add that the studies done are very short term and only reflect conditions for a fraction of the year in one tiny area within a species range. Also, as you noted, each study only addresses ONE species within that tiny fraction of the range during the tiny fraction of a year.

---

I don't look at humidity as the band aid. Rather, it is the glue that holds the puzzle together.

I agree. All the elements must be there.

And that's my point. I'm not going all crazy with the water to over-compensate for some other deficiency. The water is just a necessary part of the "smooth tortoise" equation.

---

I'm guessing that when onarock was talking about lack of scientific research for particular husbandry practices, he was referring to research done by the scientific method. You know: hypothesis, design an experiment, variables, control group, conclusion, all of that. If one were trying to use the scientific method to prove what husbandry practices would result in the best long-term health of the tortoise, first we'd have a debate about how to keep the control group(s). Then the researcher would have to decide which variable to test, and he might as well test them all or we're 30 years into the future without have the information we need. With multiple subjects in each group, and multiple species, over many many years, you are talking about a vast and extremely expensive undertaking. It would not be difficult to design such research, but where is the money for it? Who among us can really treat our torts as subjects and continue on with an experiment even if the results are visibly negative long before the term of experimentation has ended? Not me. I'm content with the knowledge we have from observations, anecdotes, etc.

Pure genius Edna. This is what needs to be done. In an informal way I have always looked to my adults as a control group. I raised them in basically the same way, only very dry. All my new ones have had ONE major variable changed. Water. Water in the form of humidity, hydration and shell spraying.

---

out of curiousity where did the 80% number come from what calculations led too this.are we speculating that a leopard tort hatchling in africa most of the for that matter all find a hide that is 80 f and 80% rh and are able too remain there for a year or more?from what i've seen too dry has been tried and failed,adding a humid hide has been added and succeeeded,what has led too go swamp,were the fife brothers wrong,are their claims of smooth healthy torts lies.why was it felt needed too go more extreme?

Good question. I credit Maggie for posting that number first, but I could be wrong. It seems about right and I'm pretty sure that is also the number used in the highest humidity level in the "Austrian" study.

---

hello all, I am not debating the humidity thing but just throwing in that with the humidity and moist substrate comes as madkins007 pointed out the very high risk of plastron infections. The substrates in these types of settings(which I also use) must be sanitized daily with chlorhexidine or equivalent and changed regulary. O.K. enough said continue with the fighting!

Not true for sulcatas and leopards Mike. Mine are all on wet coco coir, coco chips, orchid bark, or "forest floor" mixes and I have never sprayed any kind of disinfectant in there. In fact I never clean or replace the substrate at all. They defecate in their daily soaks , so there is almost never any filth in their enclosure. Left over food is removed by hand daily. All of my torts of all ages have perfectly healthy plastrons and two of the most knowledgeable tortoise vets that I know have each only seen ONE single case in their entire careers. Each of the two cases was due to other mitigating factors.

---

Hmmm I'm a bit confused Tom. Who's been a "proponent" of the band aid theory? I can't help but think you're talking to me. As far as I know I'm the only one that's brought up the "Band-Aid" idea, but that's just a way to paraphrase Andy Highfield's ideas on the subject, and that doesn't mean I think he's right. He MIGHT be, but he could just as easily be WRONG, don't know yet, I've just referred to it. At that same time I clearly stated that the "band-aid" idea if it was correct

Balboa, to be honest I didn't even remember who coined the phrase "band-aid". It seemed several people supported the idea and NO ONE has ever pointed out to me what (other than lots of water) has been so lacking in my husbandry all these years. From where I sit NOTHING has been lacking (EXCEPT WATER). This has been a source of great frustration for me for a while now. Many people (who don't want to believe the humidity thing) want to write this point off and not address it. They ignore this question every time it comes up. They say "its diet", "its calcium", "its sunshine", etc... I say wait I had all those things and everything else too, but they still pyramided. NOW that I have all of those things PLUS the water, they DON'T pyramid.

I consider you (AND Onarock) friends and cohorts in this great hobby that we all participate in. We all want answers to these questions and I'm trying to convince the un-convinceable that we HAVE the answer to THIS question. EVERY tort of EVERY species raised with any variation of the "wet" routine grows up smooth and healthy. Testudo, redfoot, sulcata, both subspecies of leopard, galops, aldabs, stars, radiateds, CDTs, TTs... the list gets longer every day. There are ongoing pics and updates to support this all over the forum. The Fife's have been doing a much milder version of this for 10 years or more. One long time tort keeper told me he's been doing it since the 60's. Terry K has been doing it for nearly ten years. The evidence is growing and insurmountable. I just can't see what there is to argue about.

We should all be critical of new stuff. Like insects for babies, for example, haha. We should all question things and never stop trying to learn. But there must come a point when we say a round wheel DOES roll more efficiently than a square wheel, no matter what anyone's argument is. I, and several others, have done the research. We have done the experiments. We have seen the evidence both ways first hand. We have reviewed all of the facts from MANY sources, and dammit, torts raised with humidity and hydration DON'T pyramid and they ARE as healthy or healthier than any other tortoise out there raised any other way.

Balboa and others, You are all a necessary part of this debate. Never stop challenging or questioning the status quo. With out your questions and doubts, post like this and threads like this would never happen. I think we all learn the most when there is this sort of RESPECTFUL conflict and debate. It saddens me greatly when people get upset and leave right at the height of their most valuable input. It took my ranting and raving to bring Terry K. back into this discussion a year ago and we are all the better for it in my opinion. Unfortunately many others have chosen to leave.

I do love all the supportive comments and most of the people here have been very supportive and respectful even if they don't fully agree or understand my points sometimes. For that I am very thankful.

I feel I should point out something that Mark brought up. I went to the extreme with Daisy, my three year old, out of terrible frustration AND to prove a point one way or the other. I did just that and have learned a tremendous amount from my little guinea pig. I always had her health and well being in mind and proceeded with great caution, but I did proceed. I DO NOT advocate anyone needed to go to THAT extreme, but it does serve as a good example that even at that extreme, no harm is done and in fact she has become one of my greatest tortoise keeping triumphs. You can SEE the evidence of my efforts forever recorded in her growth rings and scutes. In an "average" American household I believe the Fife's method of offering a simple humid hide box will be enough to prevent pyramiding, ASSUMING that you are starting with a hatchling that is already smooth and NOT dehydrated. Personally, because I know that it does no harm AND I believe it is of great benefit, I choose to use more wetness and humidity than what they advocate.

One way or another we will all continue to learn on this subject and over time a consensus will be reached. Thanks to everyone for participating.

 

[John]

supportive tom,lol thats an understatement.I'm starting too wonder if they will drink kool-aid for ya.lol for the record i am not debating the humidity thing some here may know its not a new concept in the reptile world,actually I'm not debating it at all i am more concerned with the way its come too daily soaks,misting three or moretimes a day wet substrate.I myself think its extreme but thats only my opinion.i keep my torts hydrated and humidity stays fairly high in my rep room due too the pythons.tom i have developed alot of respect for ya since i joined here,but i'm just the kinda guy that is not easily led there's an awful lotta cause i said so on this forum.I'd like too see the numbers and how exactly they were set.again at what point and for what reason did someone determine the fife's theory was not enough you have too go extreme.In ending this will be my last post I'm sure that makes you all happy.most of my questions go unresponded too and wash away in the thread tide and sometimes when the are answered its like the whole post wasn't even read.too those who have helped thank you again and take care

 

[Redfoot NERD]

supportive tom,lol thats an understatement.I'm starting too wonder if they will drink kool-aid for ya.lol for the record i am not debating the humidity thing some here may know its not a new concept in the reptile world,actually I'm not debating it at all i am more concerned with the way its come too daily soaks,misting three or moretimes a day wet substrate.I myself think its extreme but thats only my opinion.i keep my torts hydrated and humidity stays fairly high in my rep room due too the pythons.tom i have developed alot of respect for ya since i joined here,but i'm just the kinda guy that is not easily led there's an awful lotta cause i said so on this forum.I'd like too see the numbers and how exactly they were set.again at what point and for what reason did someone determine the fife's theory was not enough you have too go extreme.In ending this will be my last post I'm sure that makes you all happy.most of my questions go unresponded too and wash away in the thread tide and sometimes when the are answered its like the whole post wasn't even read.too those who have helped thank you again and take care

Know how that goes.. about not responded too other than 'them' feeling they have to say something even tho' it's out of context, etc. Squa!

The extreme high humidity levels Tom uses again are a result of the extreme LOW humidity where Tom lives.

In the winter in the building where heaters keep the temps up [ it was single digits last night ] I have to mist more heavily because of the drying affect they create. So not only is the humidity a vital [ too often unused ] part.. it does balance also.

See ya...

Terry K

 

[Tom]

supportive tom,lol thats an understatement.I'm starting too wonder if they will drink kool-aid for ya.lol for the record i am not debating the humidity thing some here may know its not a new concept in the reptile world,actually I'm not debating it at all i am more concerned with the way its come too daily soaks,misting three or moretimes a day wet substrate.I myself think its extreme but thats only my opinion.i keep my torts hydrated and humidity stays fairly high in my rep room due too the pythons.tom i have developed alot of respect for ya since i joined here,but i'm just the kinda guy that is not easily led there's an awful lotta cause i said so on this forum.I'd like too see the numbers and how exactly they were set.again at what point and for what reason did someone determine the fife's theory was not enough you have too go extreme.In ending this will be my last post I'm sure that makes you all happy.most of my questions go unresponded too and wash away in the thread tide and sometimes when the are answered its like the whole post wasn't even read.too those who have helped thank you again and take care

Somehow I've been branded the "ring-leader" in all of this. I did NOT invent these concepts. I'm just a young loud mouth screaming from the mountain top, "Hey! These really smart guys over here found something that really works!" I have gone to the extreme for two reasons. 1. Because, as Terry has repeatedly pointed out, my area and tortoise housing situation dictates it and... 2. Just to prove that even at the EXTREME, nothing bad happens, and in fact you end up with smooth, healthy torts. Just look at Daisy. She started out horribly pyramided for a 3 month old. It took a long time, but I turned her around and now she's growing at a "normal" rate and growing totally smooth. I don't want to "lead" anyone. I don't want any sort of title or recognition out of any of this. I'm just very passionate about learning to care for my animals properly and ending pyramiding. I've done a lot of research and trial and error to get here and I want to share what I've observed along the way so that everyone else does not have to learn all that I've learned "the hard way".

Everytime I mention how swampy I keep Daisy, I add in the caveat that no one really NEEDS to go to such an extreme. Everyone seems to focus on the swampy part and miss the caveat.

I don't know why you think anyone will be happy that this is your last post. I enjoy your contributions to these and other threads. What I would really like is for you to show everyone, in detail, how YOU keep YOUR torts, and what the results are. That's the one thing lacking from the "other" side of these discussions. The people who are backing the humidity/hydration thing like me, Terry K, Terry O, Neal, Dean, and many others post regular pics with detailed descriptions and pics of our enclosures. We are not saying "Hey everybody MUST do THIS!" We are simply saying, "Hey, check this out. This is what I'm doing over here at my place, and these are the results I'm getting". The argument comes when people come on and say "That won't work", or "That's too much", or "That's not healthy", or "It doesn't happen that way in the wild", or any other falsehood. We are demonstrating in clear detail that it DOES work, its NOT too much, it IS healthy and NOBODY knows what happens to babies in the wild.

Be well Squamata. You are always welcome here.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Received these pics from someone ( didn't know ) who followed my caresheet.. not even my redfoot -

These went to Pat in Washington state as 2 month-olds -

and 6-8 mo.- olds -

She sent pics a year and two years later.. was worried that a couple of them had grown too fast and were not smooth -

Two more of mine..

5 years later -

My favorite "hold-back" - compare nose-pattens -

3 years later -

How many more do you need to see?

TEK

 

[stells]

How many more of these threads do we need...

We get it ok...

Some think Humidity is the be all and end all...

Others.... think it isn't everything...

Can't we have differeces of opinion...

You really don't have to work this hard to prove yourselves... since i have given up trying... its so much better...

Do what you do... we will do what we do... end of

 

[Jermosh]

I am a real green horn in tort keeping, I have had other reptiles of course, but still a real amature. So let me talk about from the outside a bit.

I think what people are being confused on is that there is no water in torts environment, this is untrue, even for DTs. From morning dew to mud wallows, torts know where to get water and moisture. DTs and I would imagine other low water torts know how and where to build wallows to capture rain, dew, and dry river bed or springs. This is one of the reasons why DTs cannot be successfully rehabilitated back into the wild from what I understand.

The other part is what is watering, I am of the impression as is my vet that between lawn watering and sprinkling we do not need to add any more moisture except a misting system for heat control in the summer and a fresh bowl of water, I am thinking of making a cement wallow that would be autofill though. I still do a weekly soak or more in the winter since my watering times are down.

As for calling it a band-aid? Depends, in the end we are caring for an animal that is taken out of its environment that it has evolved for. So anything we do is less then ideal so to speak, but we are trying for the ideal of a long term commitment, which is certainly not a band-aid IMHO.

Also want to add, that there is a difference between over-watering and an over moist environment. One is almost impossible to cause damage other then drowning, the other can cause mold issues that a foreign animals might not be able to handle, but can be managed.