Hatchling Growth Rates

[Neal]

Opinions please...
The baby leopard I had that died pooped out quite a bit of some whitish stuff on the first day or two after I got her. Reading on the forum that "urates" are normal I didn't worry about it. She was about two months of age. She wouldn't eat and didn't poop for the entire time I had her. I took her to the vet and had her euthanized apprx. 6-8 weeks later because she was beyond saving. She was soaked every day, kept in a warm, humid environment and offered a variety of healthy foods. Now, since then I have had several leopard babies, given them all the same care and they are all thriving. None have every pooped out "urates."
Do you see this as possible vermiculite problem?

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I have to admit that being new I wouldn't have known the difference between "urates" and vermiculite in the poop.

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It was more than likely just urates. Any idea on how the breeder housed the tortoise for those two months before you had her? Are you aware of the status of any of her clutch mates?

 

[DesertGrandma]

It was more than likely just urates. Any idea on how the breeder housed the tortoise for those two months before you had her? Are you aware of the status of any of her clutch mates?


No, I am not aware. Just grasping at straws I guess, still looking for an answer.

 

[Yvonne G]

Since urates form because of retained water for long periods of time, I would have to assume that a hatchling would not have urates. They haven't been alive long enough for urates to build up. I'm going with substrate blockage.

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This is a very informative thread and I'd hate to see it get taken off topic or get derailed by hurt feelings. Please try to stay polite and avoid any name calling.

 

[DesertGrandma]

@ Yvonne Since urates form because of retained water for long periods of time, I would have to assume that a hatchling would not have urates. They haven't been alive long enough for urates to build up. I'm going with substrate blockage.

Sure wish the vet had offered to do a necropsy. He said there were so many issues he didn't know the cause without doing a lot of tests ($250) ouch. Even at that I had to pay for the vet visit and euthanasia.

 

[Baoh]

Since urates form because of retained water for long periods of time, I would have to assume that a hatchling would not have urates. They haven't been alive long enough for urates to build up. I'm going with substrate blockage.

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This is a very informative thread and I'd hate to see it get taken off topic or get derailed by hurt feelings. Please try to stay polite and avoid any name calling.

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Since they (urates) are nitrogenous excreta, they can start forming and building up as soon as an animal has functioning kidneys and they have functioning kidneys at some point well before they hatch. I have seen week-old Testudo hatchlings pass urates, but they hatched in nature and the Summers are rather dry in that areas I witnessed this in.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I have no problem with the higher ambient humidity methods and often allow a very humid ambient area to exist in some of my enclosures for smaller animals. This area is no larger than a quarter of any of my enclosures by happenstance. However, rather than shoot for air saturation in most of my enclosures, my overall tendency is to provide a substrate with a thick and moist subterranean layer beneath a thin to moderately thick and totally dry surface layer.

Boah, do you think that it is possible that pyramiding could be a direct result with a tortoises lack of hydration? And if not, can you explain how ambient humidity directly effects the shell growth? Here is the premises for my question, none of our aldabras ever pyramid. Naturally we have great humidity here in Florida and that is never a factor. We hydrate and provide a natural diet. What i have noticed from many personal observations is when our hatchlings are relocated they seem to pyramid when they are provided a rich diet and grow very fast. When they are fed a more natural diet and grow at a slower rate they tend to not pyramid. Provided that all tortoises are well hydrated and humidity is the same, any theory as to why the difference if all factors are the same except the food sources? I know this is a highly controversial topic, i have always struggled with an aldabra that was started so smooth and immediately start to pyramid as soon as the food sources change, providing all other elements are similar. I would really like to hear your perspective, thank you.

p.s. Anyone else have a scientific answer please feel free to comment.

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

Greg, how do you keep your hatchlings throughout Winter?


Here is my take on pyramiding.

I think hydration is the KEY to pyramiding. Humidity will help the tortoise stay hydrated, but humidity by itself will not keep a tortoise smooth. From what I have seen over the years is that tortoises raised inside under basking lights pyramid far more than any tortoise raised outside in the same humidity. I think it is the basking lights that dehydrate our tortoises so quickly and makes them pyramid at the blink of an eye. When my babies of any species are outside they are rarely if ever in direct sunlight, but when kept inside they are under their basking bulbs for hours every day which dehydrates them very quickly which will in turn make them pyramid if not given enough water to replenish themselves.

 

[wellington]

Greg, how do you keep your hatchlings throughout Winter?


Here is my take on pyramiding.

I think hydration is the KEY to pyramiding. Humidity will help the tortoise stay hydrated, but humidity by itself will not keep a tortoise smooth. From what I have seen over the years is that tortoises raised inside under basking lights pyramid far more than any tortoise raised outside in the same humidity. I think it is the basking lights that dehydrate our tortoises so quickly and makes them pyramid at the blink of an eye. When my babies of any species are outside they are rarely if ever in direct sunlight, but when kept inside they are under their basking bulbs for hours every day which dehydrates them very quickly which will in turn make them pyramid if not given enough water to replenish themselves.

A good experiment for this would be to raise some inside with a fluorescent UVB and use a heater for warmth and only a CHE off to one side or in a separate attached tub for basking,if even needed, but still using the higher humidity. I only have one 21 month old leopard, so not much experience here. However, I observe the same with my Leo as you when he is outside. Usually hiding under something in the heat of the day and the sun is the brightest and hottest. When there is more shade in his enclosure, without having to hide under something to get it, he is out and about
more. I also have never seen my leopard bask under the mvb, only off to the side of it and never for long.

 

[Baoh]

I have no problem with the higher ambient humidity methods and often allow a very humid ambient area to exist in some of my enclosures for smaller animals. This area is no larger than a quarter of any of my enclosures by happenstance. However, rather than shoot for air saturation in most of my enclosures, my overall tendency is to provide a substrate with a thick and moist subterranean layer beneath a thin to moderately thick and totally dry surface layer.

Boah, do you think that it is possible that pyramiding could be a direct result with a tortoises lack of hydration? And if not, can you explain how ambient humidity directly effects the shell growth? Here is the premises for my question, none of our aldabras ever pyramid. Naturally we have great humidity here in Florida and that is never a factor. We hydrate and provide a natural diet. What i have noticed from many personal observations is when our hatchlings are relocated they seem to pyramid when they are provided a rich diet and grow very fast. When they are fed a more natural diet and grow at a slower rate they tend to not pyramid. Provided that all tortoises are well hydrated and humidity is the same, any theory as to why the difference if all factors are the same except the food sources? I know this is a highly controversial topic, i have always struggled with an aldabra that was started so smooth and immediately start to pyramid as soon as the food sources change, providing all other elements are similar. I would really like to hear your perspective, thank you.

p.s. Anyone else have a scientific answer please feel free to comment.

My Aldabras are raised on a rich diet (like many of my animals). No significant pyramiding is taking place. There is a crappy photo in my thread. I will take a better one tonight to post to show a better angle.

I think hydration is important because it allows for the proper metabolism of everything, calcium included. I think humidity is important because bone conforms to Wolff's Law, and keratin is more flexible when hydrated (think fingernails). The tension placed on bone is reduced if the keratin of scutes is hydrated and therefore more flexible. This also reduces acute angles of pull (a geometric matter).

So internal and external factors are important. Nutritionally, adequate protein AND adequate minerals are important to provide substrate materials for the proper generation of overlying keratin and underlying bone.

To me, it is not one thing and these several factors are acting in concert. No secrets or any one key, but some factors are likely more important in terms of proportion. What that balance is is anyone's guess without serious DOE work with a lot of data.

 

[Yvonne G]

I just realized that this is in the debatable topics forum.

 

[TortoiseBoy1999]

I just realized that this is in the debatable topics forum.

I don't think it was before????

 

[DesertGrandma]

Greg, when you talk about a "rich" diet, are you referring to Mazuri, or something else? Just trying to understand everyone's comments. Thanks.

 

[Baoh]

Greg, I put some new photos up in my photo thread to show you what one of my animals looks like that has been raised with a rather rich diet (Unlimited graze of select planted turnip greens with a little bit of weeds and grasses during the Summer; Mazuri daily and high energy density plant foods such as avocado three or more times a week during the colder months). Before I sold off my other Aldabras, they had comparable growth quality. This one was my smallest and highest domed when I bought several to drive unit price down and hedge my bets on survival before I had any Aldabra experience, so I kept "her" (no real idea as to its actual sex) as my future family pet and dinosaur pony and sold the rest after everything ended up going great.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Greg, how do you keep your hatchlings throughout Winter?


Here is my take on pyramiding.

I think hydration is the KEY to pyramiding. Humidity will help the tortoise stay hydrated, but humidity by itself will not keep a tortoise smooth. From what I have seen over the years is that tortoises raised inside under basking lights pyramid far more than any tortoise raised outside in the same humidity. I think it is the basking lights that dehydrate our tortoises so quickly and makes them pyramid at the blink of an eye. When my babies of any species are outside they are rarely if ever in direct sunlight, but when kept inside they are under their basking bulbs for hours every day which dehydrates them very quickly which will in turn make them pyramid if not given enough water to replenish themselves.

* All of are hatchlings are kept outside in natural elements unless it is below 70f. Many days the day temps are good and we bring them inside for the cooler nights.

Greg, when you talk about a "rich" diet, are you referring to Mazuri, or something else? Just trying to understand everyone's comments. Thanks.

* My reference was basically meaning a high volume of fruit and commercial feeds.

 

[jtrux]

Greg, when you talk about a "rich" diet, are you referring to Mazuri, or something else? Just trying to understand everyone's comments. Thanks.

Same here, curious as to what is considered rich?

 

[volcom6981]

Very good topic here, and im now wondering if this why my hachling passed away. I could never figure out what i did wrong, i thought all my temps were in order, i am just so confused.

As far as bringing in your toroise for the winter, which i have to do, what is the best lighting/heating set-up. Does anybody use just a CHE, with tube type UVB. Or is it best to use a MVB, or a house hold bulb, with tube UVB. Just seems like there are so many options i often wonder what is best for those who cant have there tortoises out year round?

 

[bigbeaks]

Very good topic here, and im now wondering if this why my hachling passed away. I could never figure out what i did wrong, i thought all my temps were in order, i am just so confused.

As far as bringing in your toroise for the winter, which i have to do, what is the best lighting/heating set-up. Does anybody use just a CHE, with tube type UVB. Or is it best to use a MVB, or a house hold bulb, with tube UVB. Just seems like there are so many options i often wonder what is best for those who cant have there tortoises out year round?

I use both, fluorescent UVB with CHE and mercury vapors with my babies and see no differences in them other then some small hatchlings seem to have a little eye sensitivity to the mercury vapor.

 

[Tom]

Very good topic here, and im now wondering if this why my hachling passed away. I could never figure out what i did wrong, i thought all my temps were in order, i am just so confused.

As far as bringing in your toroise for the winter, which i have to do, what is the best lighting/heating set-up. Does anybody use just a CHE, with tube type UVB. Or is it best to use a MVB, or a house hold bulb, with tube UVB. Just seems like there are so many options i often wonder what is best for those who cant have there tortoises out year round?

Only a necropsy will tell you for sure what happened to your hatchling. The two most likely causes that I have seen are impaction and chronic dehydration.

Everyone has a different preference for what to do in winter. I like to use a CHE on a thermostat for ambient temp maintenance, a florescent tube for light and/or UV, and an incandescent flood bulb for basking. The combo of all three suits me the best.

 

[volcom6981]

Very good topic here, and im now wondering if this why my hachling passed away. I could never figure out what i did wrong, i thought all my temps were in order, i am just so confused.

As far as bringing in your toroise for the winter, which i have to do, what is the best lighting/heating set-up. Does anybody use just a CHE, with tube type UVB. Or is it best to use a MVB, or a house hold bulb, with tube UVB. Just seems like there are so many options i often wonder what is best for those who cant have there tortoises out year round?

Only a necropsy will tell you for sure what happened to your hatchling. The two most likely causes that I have seen are impaction and chronic dehydration.

Everyone has a different preference for what to do in winter. I like to use a CHE on a thermostat for ambient temp maintenance, a florescent tube for light and/or UV, and an incandescent flood bulb for basking. The combo of all three suits me the best.

Yea i dont know i didnt get a necropsy, he just died tonight after getting a boost shot at the vet. It did seem like a dehydration problem, but i couldnt understand why because it was between 60-80% humid in the enclosure with a 80% or a little higher humid hide. He was great all summer, now i only got him in July he was very young only a couple weeks, but October rolled around and it went all down hill.

As far as lights thats what i do a CHE for heat, a house hold bulb for UV, and 2 UVB tube bulbs, for the hachlings.

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Very good topic here, and im now wondering if this why my hachling passed away. I could never figure out what i did wrong, i thought all my temps were in order, i am just so confused.

As far as bringing in your toroise for the winter, which i have to do, what is the best lighting/heating set-up. Does anybody use just a CHE, with tube type UVB. Or is it best to use a MVB, or a house hold bulb, with tube UVB. Just seems like there are so many options i often wonder what is best for those who cant have there tortoises out year round?

I use both, fluorescent UVB with CHE and mercury vapors with my babies and see no differences in them other then some small hatchlings seem to have a little eye sensitivity to the mercury vapor.

Thats what always worried me about the MVB for hachlings is hurting there eyes. Also if they bask under the MVB bulb for too long i would imagaine they would dehidrate much faster.

 

[mightymizz]

You mention a "boost shot". I have a feeling that not many people like their torts to get these types of shots if it was the vitamin A type.