Are these PB S. African Leopards?

[Neal]

Wow, what a fun thread!

As usual, I'm late to the party. Not that I think I was missed, lol, but I'd still like to comment even if everyone has moved on with life and I'm left all alone.

It seems to me that we are comparing apples to oranges here, sort of. Let's say the picture in post 1 are F2 specimens and the hatchlings in the other pictures are all F1's from Randy's stock (I hope I have the terminology correct here). The fact that they're F2 adds a whole new dynamic to the characteristics we're seeing. I agree that single or no dot vertebral scutes are not common in Randy's F1 hatchlings, though I have seen a few. But, we've never before seen hatchlings that these two specific adults have produced, so I would completely expect to see some variations between these and the F1's.

If we're going to argue that these are or aren't "pure South African leopards" based on the number of dots on their vertebral scutes, I think we need more F2 data in order to make a better comparison.

Am I thinking about this wrong? I'm an accountant, not a biologist, so someone please tell me if I have completely missed the mark.

Even if we can compare two separate groups of F2 specimens, as some have pointed out, there really is little or no scientific accuracy in associating certain characteristics with specific localities. There is WAY too much diversity in leopard tortoises in their home range, let alone what we have to deal with here in the USA. A good guess as to what sort of genetic make up a group of leopard tortoises has just by looking at them, is still just a guess. The pictures in the link Will provided is a good example of just how diverse leopards are even among specimens found in the same locality.

For what it's worth, I think that the hatchlings in the first post are "pure South African leopards", as we commonly refer to them as. Although some in the first picture appear to have one dot, the dots are not as uniform as I would expect to see on a "normal leopard". Even some of the single dots on the scutes almost appear to be two smooshed together. I saw that on a few from the groups I had. A head shot of the hatchlings would muddy this whole conversation up even more.

 

[Tom]

Wow, what a fun thread!

As usual, I'm late to the party. Not that I think I was missed, lol, but I'd still like to comment even if everyone has moved on with life and I'm left all alone.

It seems to me that we are comparing apples to oranges here, sort of. Let's say the picture in post 1 are F2 specimens and the hatchlings in the other pictures are all F1's from Randy's stock (I hope I have the terminology correct here). The fact that they're F2 adds a whole new dynamic to the characteristics we're seeing. I agree that single or no dot vertebral scutes are not common in Randy's F1 hatchlings, though I have seen a few. But, we've never before seen hatchlings that these two specific adults have produced, so I would completely expect to see some variations between these and the F1's.

If we're going to argue that these are or aren't "pure South African leopards" based on the number of dots on their vertebral scutes, I think we need more F2 data in order to make a better comparison.

Am I thinking about this wrong? I'm an accountant, not a biologist, so someone please tell me if I have completely missed the mark.

Even if we can compare two separate groups of F2 specimens, as some have pointed out, there really is little or no scientific accuracy in associating certain characteristics with specific localities. There is WAY too much diversity in leopard tortoises in their home range, let alone what we have to deal with here in the USA. A good guess as to what sort of genetic make up a group of leopard tortoises has just by looking at them, is still just a guess. The pictures in the link Will provided is a good example of just how diverse leopards are even among specimens found in the same locality.

For what it's worth, I think that the hatchlings in the first post are "pure South African leopards", as we commonly refer to them as. Although some in the first picture appear to have one dot, the dots are not as uniform as I would expect to see on a "normal leopard". Even some of the single dots on the scutes almost appear to be two smooshed together. I saw that on a few from the groups I had. A head shot of the hatchlings would muddy this whole conversation up even more.

You are not missing the mark, and a lot of Randy's stock is F2 and F3 and F4. He's been producing them without any outside genetic material added since the early 90's. The adults in this thread that produced those babies are likely F2 or F3 offspring.

My contention about the babies pictured in post number one of this thread is that there is genetic influence outside of Randy's genetic line at work here. The 8 babies in post number one of this thread sporting a single symmetrical dot in each vertebral scute do not look like the babies from Randy's stock that I know, Andy knows and multiple others are producing.

Jason has already stated that he also has "South African Leopards" from other sources, but has declined to answer whether the two from Edna are living alone as a pair, and always have, or if that pair is living with his other "SAL"s from the other sources. Since those babies look different than ALL of the babies out of Randy's stock from multiple generations and sources, it is my supposition that there is outside genetic material from somewhere.

You are right about apples and oranges. I'm not talking about any tortoise from the general region of "South Africa". We all know there are multiple morphologically different populations in the region of the leopard tortoise's range, not to mention whatever genetic material has been moved around by the humans in that part of the world. When I'm referring to "South African leopard tortoises", I am referring to the specific pure bred line that Randy has been managing since the early 90's. This whole line throws consistently easily recognizable babies. When they are bred with other lines, the babies show other characteristics, as the babies in post number one do. I've already posted pics to demonstrate this.

 

[Tom]

This South African leopard is a nice example of one that bucks the stereotype purported by some in the US as a matter of (observationally false) universality.

Nice looking tortoise, but not what we are talking about here. We are talking about a specific line of tortoises available for sale in the US that have been bred true for decades without mixing in outside genetic material. There are lots and lots of different types of leopards in South Africa, but that is not the topic of the conversation we are having here.

What is your deal? You don't post here for years, and you were never helpful to anyone in your first go around, and your return here is yet another attempt to discredit me and try to make me look stupid? Why? I'm flattered that you care so much about me and every word I say, but your obsession is a little odd...

 

[Neal]

You are not missing the mark, and a lot of Randy's stock is F2 and F3 and F4. He's been producing them without any outside genetic material added since the early 90's. The adults in this thread that produced those babies are likely F2 or F3 offspring.

My contention about the babies pictured in post number one of this thread is that there is genetic influence outside of Randy's genetic line at work here. The 8 babies in post number one of this thread sporting a single symmetrical dot in each vertebral scute do not look like the babies from Randy's stock that I know, Andy knows and multiple others are producing.

Jason has already stated that he also has "South African Leopards" from other sources, but has declined to answer whether the two from Edna are living alone as a pair, and always have, or if that pair is living with his other "SAL"s from the other sources. Since those babies look different than ALL of the babies out of Randy's stock from multiple generations and sources, it is my supposition that there is outside genetic material from somewhere.

You are right about apples and oranges. I'm not talking about any tortoise from the general region of "South Africa". We all know there are multiple morphologically different populations in the region of the leopard tortoise's range, not to mention whatever genetic material has been moved around by the humans in that part of the world. When I'm referring to "South African leopard tortoises", I am referring to the specific pure bred line that Randy has been managing since the early 90's. This whole line throws consistently easily recognizable babies. When they are bred with other lines, the babies show other characteristics, as the babies in post number one do. I've already posted pics to demonstrate this.

My apples to oranges reference was regarding the comparison of Randy's "F1" (or whatever they may be) hatchlings to the hatchlings in the first picture, not his hatchlings to other SA variants.

I understand your argument well, and I think it's valid. But, as you said, we don't know if the adults that produced the hatchlings in post 1 have had access to other animals. I assumed not based on Jason's response in post #20, but it is not 100% clear. What my argument is, is that we are not comparing F1's with F1's or F2's with F2's. Is there evidence out there that all his F1, F2, F3, etc... hatchlings have all consistently had two dots on the vetebral scutes? I would like to see that evidence if it exists. With as much variability as there is in leopard tortoises even among genetic lines, I think this is a valid argument.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I got confused here myself on apples and oranges, or more specifically one persons selective breeding for traits with or without intent, and what is commonly thought of as "the" south African phenotype. Oh wait a minute. If one persons animals are the standard, then we are no longer thinking about a regional set of traits unique to that region, we are talking about one persons line breeding. I guess I am confused. I'll sit this out as I peel the rind off my apple.

Tom, no need to worry about TFO snipers, it is with word bullets. Your passion for sorting things out is unquestionable. Sometimes I don't agree with your resulting conclusion, but that you seek a "most correct" end point. Sometimes there is just no knowing.

 

[Tom]

I asked a friend to send me some pics this morning. His stock is from Randy and it is all F2 or later. The adults that produced these babies are all captive bred and raised babies.



Here are 37 more examples of babies that are typical of what I see out of Randy's stock. These are what I refer to as Gpp, or South African leopards, as we know them here in the US. Are there lots of other types of leopards tortoises actually in South Africa? Sure. Of course. Did some of those other types of South African leopards get imported over here to the US at some point in the past? I don't know. Maybe. Possibly. Does anyone know for sure? I think it would be really cool if there were multiple distinct population being bred in the US of different types of pure SALs, but I only know of the ones being produced by Randy, and Randy's line of tortoises is the only line I'm talking about when I refer to a "South African Leopard tortoise" when we are discussing what is for sale over here. I'm talking about these tortoises in the picture. This type. I'm NOT talking about the huge variety that exists IN South Africa that may or may not have ever made it over here. There is not one in this entire group of 37 that has a single, stand alone, round dot in the middle of each vertebral scute, and there were none at Randy's place, or in the groups that I bought from him either.

Going back to post number one of this thread, it is clear that there is strong genetic influence from Randy's lines, which should be obvious since at least half of the genetic material is from the babies that came from Randy's line (Edna's two.). But since 8 of the 14 babies depicted in post number one do NOT look like these, or the ones Andy posted, or the ones I posted, which are all F2 or later babies out of these lines, I still contend there is something else mixed in, and given what the breeder stated is in his collection, it is easy to see how this could have happened. Do I KNOW this happened? Of course not. How could I? I can only make an educated guess based on what I see. I see over 200 babies from Randy's stock that all look one way, compared to 8 out of 14 babies that look distinctly different. What other conclusion is there?

 

[Tom]

I got confused here myself on apples and oranges, or more specifically one persons selective breeding for traits with or without intent, and what is commonly thought of as "the" south African phenotype. Oh wait a minute. If one persons animals are the standard, then we are no longer thinking about a regional set of traits unique to that region, we are talking about one persons line breeding. I guess I am confused. I'll sit this out as I peel the rind off my apple.

Tom, no need to worry about TFO snipers, it is with word bullets. Your passion for sorting things out is unquestionable. Sometimes I don't agree with your resulting conclusion, but that you seek a "most correct" end point. Sometimes there is just no knowing.

Thank you Will.

I think I made my position clear in these last few posts. I'm not disputing that there are all sorts of morphological difference among the wide variety of South African leopards. I'm arguing that the leopards depicted in post number one are a mix of Randy's type of South African leopard and some other type of leopard, that may be from somewhere else in SA, or might be a mix of various leopard types.

 

[Neal]

I got confused here myself on apples and oranges, or more specifically one persons selective breeding for traits with or without intent, and what is commonly thought of as "the" south African phenotype. Oh wait a minute. If one persons animals are the standard, then we are no longer thinking about a regional set of traits unique to that region, we are talking about one persons line breeding. I guess I am confused. I'll sit this out as I peel the rind off my apple.

Tom, no need to worry about TFO snipers, it is with word bullets. Your passion for sorting things out is unquestionable. Sometimes I don't agree with your resulting conclusion, but that you seek a "most correct" end point. Sometimes there is just no knowing.

Sorry, I hope my post in #44 cleared up my apples and oranges comment. I often have trouble translating thoughts in my brain into words that others can understand.

 

[Neal]

I asked a friend to send me some pics this morning. His stock is from Randy and it is all F2 or later. The adults that produced these babies are all captive bred and raised babies.
View attachment 165061
View attachment 165062

Here are 37 more examples of babies that are typical of what I see out of Randy's stock. These are what I refer to as Gpp, or South African leopards, as we know them here in the US. Are there lots of other types of leopards tortoises actually in South Africa? Sure. Of course. Did some of those other types of South African leopards get imported over here to the US at some point in the past? I don't know. Maybe. Possibly. Does anyone know for sure? I think it would be really cool if there were multiple distinct population being bred in the US of different types of pure SALs, but I only know of the ones being produced by Randy, and Randy's line of tortoises is the only line I'm talking about when I refer to a "South African Leopard tortoise" when we are discussing what is for sale over here. I'm talking about these tortoises in the picture. This type. I'm NOT talking about the huge variety that exists IN South Africa that may or may not have ever made it over here. There is not one in this entire group of 37 that has a single, stand alone, round dot in the middle of each vertebral scute, and there were none at Randy's place, or in the groups that I bought from him either.

Going back to post number one of this thread, it is clear that there is strong genetic influence from Randy's lines, which should be obvious since at least half of the genetic material is from the babies that came from Randy's line (Edna's two.). But since 8 of the 14 babies depicted in post number one do NOT look like these, or the ones Andy posted, or the ones I posted, which are all F2 or later babies out of these lines, I still contend there is something else mixed in, and given what the breeder stated is in his collection, it is easy to see how this could have happened. Do I KNOW this happened? Of course not. How could I? I can only make an educated guess based on what I see. I see over 200 babies from Randy's stock that all look one way, compared to 8 out of 14 babies that look distinctly different. What other conclusion is there?

Tom, in both pictures I am seeing specimens with single dots, or similar variations (smooshed dots) to the ones that are posted in picture 1...I'll grant you that the ratio of hatchlings with single dots to total hatchlings is greater than the two you have shared, but it does appear to happen in specimens directly from Randy's stock.

I'm not trying to prolong an argument or anything, I think you know me well enough to know that I am simply after information so I can understand better. Let's throw out the SA portion of this discussion and take a step back. I think what we are essentially trying to determine here is if the hatchlings in picture 1 have outside genetic influence other than Randy's stock. I am not convinced as of yet. I agree that there seems to be much more variability among the hatchlings in picture 1 than the pictures you've shared, but I would like to see more from the offspring of your 2010 group that you picked up directly from Randy before I can say that there is definitely some other genetic influence.

 

[Baoh]

Nice looking tortoise, but not what we are talking about here. We are talking about a specific line of tortoises available for sale in the US that have been bred true for decades without mixing in outside genetic material. There are lots and lots of different types of leopards in South Africa, but that is not the topic of the conversation we are having here.

Several things are being talked about here. One of those things is the assumed appearance of South African leopard tortoises based on very limited perspective which is then asserted with authority by individuals lacking it, thereby leaving people who are trying to learn about the topic left most often with only a fraction of the information available that only serves a constrained narrative. See the second quote block for an example of information that has been passed down that is not absolute and/or starkly dichotomous when evidence is brought into play.

Another aspect being discussed consists of the Limburg founders for his colony, the F1s they produce, and the F2s from those F1s. I suppose animals derived from other people's imported adults could also be mentioned in greater depth, but people outside of particular circles would have differing exposure to these and the information regarding them. Additional lines could be discussed, but lack of familiarity would give the bulk of people a disadvantage for evaluating how they fit into (or do not fit into) the stereotype for the former subspecies that has since been rendered taxonomically defunct anyway. Since phenotypic variability can be found within a given line (such as the Limburg colony which is a collection of individual animals) as generations unfurl, those additional lines are not needed to have the discussion regarding South African leopards and their breadth of appearance.

Hi all! I've read about folks who think they're purchasing purebred S. African leopards but actually get a cross instead. I know two or more spots on the vertebral scutes usually indicates they are indeed purebreds. But in the photo provided, some of the babies have two spots and some only have one, and I'm assuming all babies shown in the photo came from the same parents/batch. What does this mean?

The photograph I posted in this thread is an example of a wild caught (and/or rescued by other perspectives) animal that is a South African leopard tortoise. It does not adhere to the stereotypes promoted in the United States. It directly refutes the notion some may mistakenly have whereby they are under the incorrect belief that the numbers of spots on the scute areloae are indicative of being pure as a regional variant. Likewise, among the many F2 offspring I have seen first-hand from isolated adults raised from hatchlings originating from the Limburg colony, a variable portion are lighter or darker in color, have greater or lesser dorsoventral compression and carapace convexity, and have scute areolae with spot counts ranging from absent to several. Most South African leopards eventually have a somewhat more elongated body shape, but not all. More rounded exceptions seem to occur (when such exceptions occur) in females than in males. I have not seen any extremely rounded male South African leopard tortoises yet, but that does not mean they do not exist as a fact. It just means I may not have seen some like that and my observations would have a limit that I should approach with a degree of healthy respect for that which is unknown to me personally. Many can have a darker trend to their variegation, but not all and so-called blondes exist (I can induce this via environmental manipulation; more on a semi-related matter later after this paragraph). Most have very speckled skin that tends to gray out more as the animal matures, but there are smaller fractions of animals that have a creamier-colored skin with lower speckling. There are also quite a few pure East African leopard tortoises with elongated shapes (more often in males) and mild to extensive skin speckling. Depends on the particular population and some luck of the draw. The contours of the face can vary. Most South African leopards have an interesting rostral slope, but not every animal. The atypical animals could be of a genetic basis and they could be of an environmental (in ovo) basis. Carapace convexity is highly variable. More East Africans seem to have higher average relative convexity and most South Africans seem to have lower average relative convexity. An animal that is a pure South African is not made more or less pure by virtue of developmental topography. There are also higher-domed Manouria (a genus often known for widespread relatively reduced dorsoventral dimensions) every once in a while. That does not mean that they are not Manouria all of a sudden, either. The animals are not clones and some variability should be expected here and there since that is simply normal. Some of Randy's adults do indeed have high domes, so it is not unexpected that some offspring might as well.

The above does not even take artificial incubation post-diapause into account. People who have either hatched many eggs of this regional variant or have assisted in the incubation of many eggs of this regional variant are provided with a particularly nice set of insights. Especially once temperature extremes and sheer numbers come into play. Unless a person does this or interacts closely with someone who does to the tune of very high volume, exposure to the spectrum of variation may be more limited. Andrew Hermes has hatched more pure South African leopard tortoises than any of the other current thread participants, I would wager. Most likely more than all of the other participants combined as of now. This provides him with a far more extensive data set than low-volume work or second-hand tautological cherry-picking. Most people who repeat old yarns about stereotypical South African traits being absolute make-or-break-purity rules have or have had how many individuals? And they have hatched how many themselves? Right. Very few and usually none, respectively. I have produced no SA babies, personally, but I have contributed greatly to their production across a number of collections in terms of both relayed provision and guided methodological design. Have had many in my hands. Most of them being from the Limburg line. My experiences on this exact matter still pale by far against the experiences of people like Andrew, Randy, and others who have consistently produced such animals in volume.

What is your deal? You don't post here for years, and you were never helpful to anyone in your first go around, and your return here is yet another attempt to discredit me and try to make me look stupid? Why? I'm flattered that you care so much about me and every word I say, but your obsession is a little odd...

Deal? If you mean to ask why I have mildly participated in this thread, it is because Jason has had false accusations levied against the fidelity of his animals and the legitimacy of his labels for them. Among his collection, he owns several South African leopards. Two separate lines have been combined (and this is of benefit since it serves to provide an SA x SA outcross option instead of merely breeding Limburg to Limburg ad infinitum) for one of his pairs and the Limburg line pair of animals has been isolated to and by itself since before even coming into his possession (and before they could become reproductive). Casting doubt on the purity of his animals based on whim and nothing more substantial when compared to the more extensive experiences others have with non-stereotypical South African leopard tortoises comes across as unfortunate. When the chain of custody includes a person making aspersive claims and implications, it is revealed to be all the more disappointing (and patently unjust behavior towards the current owner regardless).

I recall myself having posted last year when notified in order to clear up an incorrect identification of a variegated berlandieri that had been used to replace a failing baby leopard tortoise. I may not have been helpful to you personally, but I help lots of people every day to the extent I choose to. Much as I have since beginning my work with various animals ages ago. I evaluate whether I want to spend my energy on a mind. If a mind is receptive, I might. If a mind is nearly incapable of working through preexisting biases, I might not.

I am not trying to discredit you. I am not trying to make you look stupid. I do not feel the need to try to do things like that. I will hold a person to their claims, though. Anyone saying the same things would be approached in the same way. I am furnishing counterexamples to claims that are perhaps light on veracity and built on something a bit too shy of genuine merit. This is about providing evidence that refutes an incorrect idea that is being used to needlessly damage another person's honest reputation and, as a result, may interfere with the sale of his properly categorized offspring.

Not sure about an obsession and all of whatever that might be. I am talking about leopard tortoises and unwarranted claims about particular leopard tortoises. Not even my favorite species, although I do like particular individual leopard tortoises quite a bit. I like how they all (both EAs and SAs of known pure lines as well as the intergrades that have become more fashionable as of late) seem to readily take to the consumption of grass with a reduced destructive effect on turf compared to other species. I also like how personable and interactive my many pure East Africans have been when I simply took the time to let it happen. I like the South Africans plenty, but I slightly favor the East Africans when it comes to personal pets. The tortoises show me their behaviors. I do not dictate them to the tortoises. They would never listen anyway.



-----------------------------------

Your words in post #5.

Those are pretty high domed carapaces and the markings don't look pure SA to me.

I have no way to verify, and I mean no insult to anyone, but those don't look like the pure, direct from the RSA adults that I have seen and they don't look like my 5 year olds either. That fact coupled with the fact that the babies they are throwing don't match what I have seen out of pure SA leopards leads me to the conclusion that they are a mix. Super nice looking, very gorgeous, awesome tortoises for sure, but not pure SA.

Frankly, unless someone knows for sure where the original stock came from originally, I don't know how you could verify. My SA leopards are directly out of a group that came from SA in 1990, and their direct offspring that have never been mixed with anything else.

That underlined portion has been verified.

Your words in post #39.

They were not raised by me, they were sold as hatchlings.

I did not say they were not pure, I said they don't look like mine, and they don't. I also said I had no way to verify it based on a pic. I based my conclusion on the babies they were throwing more than anything else.

I also said that if they are throwing babies that don't look like what they looked like when they are babies, then there is likely some other genetic material mixed in, and I still stand by that.

This all demonstrates, yet again, that not much can be told by showing someone a pic of an adult on the Internet.

The latter emboldened portion and the former emboldened portions display direct incongruity between the original claims from one post versus the later claim from the other post.

 

[Tom]

Several things are being talked about here. One of those things is the assumed appearance of South African leopard tortoises based on very limited perspective which is then asserted with authority by individuals lacking it, thereby leaving people who are trying to learn about the topic left most often with only a fraction of the information available that only serves a constrained narrative. See the second quote block for an example of information that has been passed down that is not absolute and/or starkly dichotomous when evidence is brought into play.

Another aspect being discussed consists of the Limburg founders for his colony, the F1s they produce, and the F2s from those F1s. I suppose animals derived from other people's imported adults could also be mentioned in greater depth, but people outside of particular circles would have differing exposure to these and the information regarding them. Additional lines could be discussed, but lack of familiarity would give the bulk of people a disadvantage for evaluating how they fit into (or do not fit into) the stereotype for the former subspecies that has since been rendered taxonomically defunct anyway. Since phenotypic variability can be found within a given line (such as the Limburg colony which is a collection of individual animals) as generations unfurl, those additional lines are not needed to have the discussion regarding South African leopards and their breadth of appearance.



The photograph I posted in this thread is an example of a wild caught (and/or rescued by other perspectives) animal that is a South African leopard tortoise. It does not adhere to the stereotypes promoted in the United States. It directly refutes the notion some may mistakenly have whereby they are under the incorrect belief that the numbers of spots on the scute areloae are indicative of being pure as a regional variant. Likewise, among the many F2 offspring I have seen first-hand from isolated adults raised from hatchlings originating from the Limburg colony, a variable portion are lighter or darker in color, have greater or lesser dorsoventral compression and carapace convexity, and have scute areolae with spot counts ranging from absent to several. Most South African leopards eventually have a somewhat more elongated body shape, but not all. More rounded exceptions seem to occur (when such exceptions occur) in females than in males. I have not seen any extremely rounded male South African leopard tortoises yet, but that does not mean they do not exist as a fact. It just means I may not have seen some like that and my observations would have a limit that I should approach with a degree of healthy respect for that which is unknown to me personally. Many can have a darker trend to their variegation, but not all and so-called blondes exist (I can induce this via environmental manipulation; more on a semi-related matter later after this paragraph). Most have very speckled skin that tends to gray out more as the animal matures, but there are smaller fractions of animals that have a creamier-colored skin with lower speckling. There are also quite a few pure East African leopard tortoises with elongated shapes (more often in males) and mild to extensive skin speckling. Depends on the particular population and some luck of the draw. The contours of the face can vary. Most South African leopards have an interesting rostral slope, but not every animal. The atypical animals could be of a genetic basis and they could be of an environmental (in ovo) basis. Carapace convexity is highly variable. More East Africans seem to have higher average relative convexity and most South Africans seem to have lower average relative convexity. An animal that is a pure South African is not made more or less pure by virtue of developmental topography. There are also higher-domed Manouria (a genus often known for widespread relatively reduced dorsoventral dimensions) every once in a while. That does not mean that they are not Manouria all of a sudden, either. The animals are not clones and some variability should be expected here and there since that is simply normal. Some of Randy's adults do indeed have high domes, so it is not unexpected that some offspring might as well.

The above does not even take artificial incubation post-diapause into account. People who have either hatched many eggs of this regional variant or have assisted in the incubation of many eggs of this regional variant are provided with a particularly nice set of insights. Especially once temperature extremes and sheer numbers come into play. Unless a person does this or interacts closely with someone who does to the tune of very high volume, exposure to the spectrum of variation may be more limited. Andrew Hermes has hatched more pure South African leopard tortoises than any of the other current thread participants, I would wager. Most likely more than all of the other participants combined as of now. This provides him with a far more extensive data set than low-volume work or second-hand tautological cherry-picking. Most people who repeat old yarns about stereotypical South African traits being absolute make-or-break-purity rules have or have had how many individuals? And they have hatched how many themselves? Right. Very few and usually none, respectively. I have produced no SA babies, personally, but I have contributed greatly to their production across a number of collections in terms of both relayed provision and guided methodological design. Have had many in my hands. Most of them being from the Limburg line. My experiences on this exact matter still pale by far against the experiences of people like Andrew, Randy, and others who have consistently produced such animals in volume.



Deal? If you mean to ask why I have mildly participated in this thread, it is because Jason has had false accusations levied against the fidelity of his animals and the legitimacy of his labels for them. Among his collection, he owns several South African leopards. Two separate lines have been combined (and this is of benefit since it serves to provide an SA x SA outcross option instead of merely breeding Limburg to Limburg ad infinitum) for one of his pairs and the Limburg line pair of animals has been isolated to and by itself since before even coming into his possession (and before they could become reproductive). Casting doubt on the purity of his animals based on whim and nothing more substantial when compared to the more extensive experiences others have with non-stereotypical South African leopard tortoises comes across as unfortunate. When the chain of custody includes a person making aspersive claims and implications, it is revealed to be all the more disappointing (and patently unjust behavior towards the current owner regardless).

I recall myself having posted last year when notified in order to clear up an incorrect identification of a variegated berlandieri that had been used to replace a failing baby leopard tortoise. I may not have been helpful to you personally, but I help lots of people every day to the extent I choose to. Much as I have since beginning my work with various animals ages ago. I evaluate whether I want to spend my energy on a mind. If a mind is receptive, I might. If a mind is nearly incapable of working through preexisting biases, I might not.

I am not trying to discredit you. I am not trying to make you look stupid. I do not feel the need to try to do things like that. I will hold a person to their claims, though. Anyone saying the same things would be approached in the same way. I am furnishing counterexamples to claims that are perhaps light on veracity and built on something a bit too shy of genuine merit. This is about providing evidence that refutes an incorrect idea that is being used to needlessly damage another person's honest reputation and, as a result, may interfere with the sale of his properly categorized offspring.

Not sure about an obsession and all of whatever that might be. I am talking about leopard tortoises and unwarranted claims about particular leopard tortoises. Not even my favorite species, although I do like particular individual leopard tortoises quite a bit. I like how they all (both EAs and SAs of known pure lines as well as the intergrades that have become more fashionable as of late) seem to readily take to the consumption of grass with a reduced destructive effect on turf compared to other species. I also like how personable and interactive my many pure East Africans have been when I simply took the time to let it happen. I like the South Africans plenty, but I slightly favor the East Africans when it comes to personal pets. The tortoises show me their behaviors. I do not dictate them to the tortoises. They would never listen anyway.



-----------------------------------

Your words in post #5.



That underlined portion has been verified.

Your words in post #39.



The latter emboldened portion and the former emboldened portions display direct incongruity between the original claims from one post versus the later claim from the other post.

Awe, you poor man. I'm absolutely flattered that you care so much and wish to devote so much of your time reading my every word and pointing out every little facet of everything I say, but alas, your efforts will be fruitless. I am happily married and off the market, so your relentless pursuit will always be in vain.

You can go back under your bridge for another couple of years now. We'll see you the next time I say something you don't approve of.

 

[Baoh]

Awe, you poor man. I'm absolutely flattered that you care so much and wish to devote so much of your time reading my every word and pointing out every little facet of everything I say, but alas, your efforts will be fruitless. I am happily married and off the market, so your relentless pursuit will always be in vain.

You can go back under your bridge for another couple of years now. We'll see you the next time I say something you don't approve of.

This scenario you have imagined does not appear to have anything to do with South African leopard tortoises or the topics discussed.

Thanks for the photos that illustrate animals which are quite deviated or have partial deviation from the stereotype attributed to the the F1 offspring (as well as more broadly). I am glad you offered them up to agree with the people whose hands-on knowledge ranges further on the topic than those who seem to not have as much direct experience with subsequent generations of offspring.
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