Are these PB S. African Leopards?

[watertiger21]

Hi all! I've read about folks who think they're purchasing purebred S. African leopards but actually get a cross instead. I know two or more spots on the vertebral scutes usually indicates they are indeed purebreds. But in the photo provided, some of the babies have two spots and some only have one, and I'm assuming all babies shown in the photo came from the same parents/batch. What does this mean?

 

[tortadise]

Without genetic analysis there's no real way of knowing, and even then that's difficult unless you have the locale specific haplotype breakdown etc for whichever locale your testing for or against.I've hatched plenty of double and triple spot leopards that are eastern locale. Unless they can prove that both sire and damn are of South African origin, then ok. Typically South African do have double spots yes, and spotted skin on the legs, neck and head. But all leopards are still one solitary species and can be represented in this manor from multiple locales all across the native range in Africa. Even the giant Somalian and Ethiopian leopards when hatchlings appear to represent identical traits of a "babcocki".

 

[Tom]

The batches of 100% for sure pure SA leopards that I've seen did not have any with single spots in the bunches that I saw. I've raised more than 6 dozen from the same source, but multiple clutches over two years, and seen dozens more. None had single spots.

Without knowing the source, I would guess that those are a mix of some sort, and not pure SA leopards.

 

[diamondbp]

The batches of 100% for sure pure SA leopards that I've seen did not have any with single spots in the bunches that I saw. I've raised more than 6 dozen from the same source, but multiple clutches over two years, and seen dozens more. None had single spots.

Without knowing the source, I would guess that those are a mix of some sort, and not pure SA leopards.

Tom the seller of these babies posted pictures of the parents on the add and they both appear to be full p.pardalis. I saved the pictures of the parents. I'll attach the pictures so you can check them out and give your opinion

 

[Tom]

Tom the seller of these babies posted pictures of the parents on the add and they both appear to be full p.pardalis. I saved the pictures of the parents. I'll attach the pictures so you can check them out and give your opinion

Those are pretty high domed carapaces and the markings don't look pure SA to me.

I have no way to verify, and I mean no insult to anyone, but those don't look like the pure, direct from the RSA adults that I have seen and they don't look like my 5 year olds either. That fact coupled with the fact that the babies they are throwing don't match what I have seen out of pure SA leopards leads me to the conclusion that they are a mix. Super nice looking, very gorgeous, awesome tortoises for sure, but not pure SA.

Frankly, unless someone knows for sure where the original stock came from originally, I don't know how you could verify. My SA leopards are directly out of a group that came from SA in 1990, and their direct offspring that have never been mixed with anything else.

 

[Tom]

When I get home, I will post pics of my batches of pure SA leopard babies and the adults they came from for comparison sake.

 

[diamondbp]

Here are few links to some really high domed SA leopards. Perhaps the breeding group in the USA doesn't exhibit the high domes but it may be recessive. I wonder if the breeder might have pictures of his current adults when they were hatchligns? That would help out.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/120274166@N08/18173831638/in/faves-36278312@N02/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/la-guiche/6731993815/in/faves-36278312@N02/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/moosedangerhall/5556820460/in/faves-36278312@N02/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/karoostream/4443302883/in/faves-36278312@N02/

 

[Tom]

Here are some of the adults that mine are out of:

 

[Tom]

A couple more:

 

[Tom]

Here are some of the babies they threw:

 

[Tom]

@diamondbp

Here ya go.

 

[diamondbp]

Beautiful adults. Lighter in color than I expected. @Elohi was possibly wanting some pp babies if your friend still has any

 

[Baoh]

Anyone curious enough can ask Jason himself where his adults (shown in post number four) came from. The answer will put some responses in proper perspective.

 

[diamondbp]

Anyone curious enough can ask Jason himself where his adults (shown in post number four) came from. The answer will put some responses in proper perspective.

Is Jason a TFO member?

 

[Leopard]

The Adult SA leopards show in the photos above are from Tom's 2010 batch. I bought them when they 6 - 7 inches from a lady in Idaho back in 2012 who told me that these pair are pure SA Leopard and originally came from Tom in Southern CA. I believed her. If Tom think these pair of SA Leopards are mix breeds, then someone had lied. either the lady from Idaho or Tom himself. I am not insulting anyone but it is the truth
I raised these pair from 6 - 7 inches long. Last year they begin to practice laying eggs. This is the first time I have done the SA Leopard project and did not know they need to diapause during incubating the egg. I just send eggs into the incubator as the normal like EA leopards . Unfortunately for the beginning few clutches I was failed, nothing come out. Then I consulted with Nick Anastasiou. he told me that I need to diapause the eggs for SA Leopard. I did it and It was succeed. the babies come out. But the things is there are some of them just has one dot instead of two or more. Then I have done a lot of research and consulting and found out that there are bunch of SA leopard has only one dot or even no dot on the scute. But some "expert" in US want to convince people that SA leopard should have two or more dots, low domes, dark color, etc otherwise they are mix. Unfortunately it is not true. I have both lighter color and darker color babies.
I do have an other pair of SA Leopard which I bought from Nick. The female originally from Wanda Paterson and the male from Florida. They both produce eggs now and have same issue. According to Nick, the pair from him are Pure SA Leopard and I trust him. Even both pair's offspring have some babies with single dot but their shape, color, and pattern is the way different with EA Leopard.
I hope this will answer all your questions.

 

[watertiger21]

The Adult SA leopards show in the photos above are from Tom's 2010 batch........ I hope this will answer all your questions.

Thanks for clarifying! I also meant no offense by making this post. I'm just trying to learn everything I can by double checking things and if I'd known you were a member of the forum I would've messaged you first!

 

[Tom]

The Adult SA leopards show in the photos above are from Tom's 2010 batch. I bought them when they 6 - 7 inches from a lady in Idaho back in 2012 who told me that these pair are pure SA Leopard and originally came from Tom in Southern CA. I believed her. If Tom think these pair of SA Leopards are mix breeds, then someone had lied. either the lady from Idaho or Tom himself. I am not insulting anyone but it is the truth
I raised these pair from 6 - 7 inches long. Last year they begin to practice laying eggs. This is the first time I have done the SA Leopard project and did not know they need to diapause during incubating the egg. I just send eggs into the incubator as the normal like EA leopards . Unfortunately for the beginning few clutches I was failed, nothing come out. Then I consulted with Nick Anastasiou. he told me that I need to diapause the eggs for SA Leopard. I did it and It was succeed. the babies come out. But the things is there are some of them just has one dot instead of two or more. Then I have done a lot of research and consulting and found out that there are bunch of SA leopard has only one dot or even no dot on the scute. But some "expert" in US want to convince people that SA leopard should have two or more dots, low domes, dark color, etc otherwise they are mix. Unfortunately it is not true. I have both lighter color and darker color babies.
I do have an other pair of SA Leopard which I bought from Nick. The female originally from Wanda Paterson and the male from Florida. They both produce eggs now and have same issue. According to Nick, the pair from him are Pure SA Leopard and I trust him. Even both pair's offspring have some babies with single dot but their shape, color, and pattern is the way different with EA Leopard.
I hope this will answer all your questions.

Have the two from the lady in Idaho had contact with the other leopards in your collection?

If those two adults in the pics above came from the lady in Idaho, then they are in that picture in the tub of 24 babies that I posted. That is the batch that hers came out of.

I find it odd that every baby in that batch, then the next years batch, and all of the ones that I didn't buy all had the double dots in the vertebral scutes, but somehow the offspring of these double dotted babies don't. I bought a total of 70 and there were more that I didn't buy, but still examined, and not a one had anything other than double dots.

I have been told that leopards can store sperm for up to 5 years. I think somewhere along the way, some other genetic material must have been introduced. I decided to wait one more year to breed mine. I will introduce the males to the females at the end of next summer. I'll be very curious now to see what mine throw. My females have had no contact with any males except their double dotted counterparts from the same source and that was when they were less than a year and a half old, and they have never been out of my care, so if mine also throw babies that look like yours, I will be eating some crow. If mine throw babies that all look the same as they all looked as babies, then I think we will have to conclude that yours have had some other genetic influence from somewhere.

I'm no expert. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Simply reporting what I have seen and answering a question.

 

[Tom]

But the things is there are some of them just has one dot instead of two or more. Then I have done a lot of research and consulting and found out that there are bunch of SA leopard has only one dot or even no dot on the scute. But some "expert" in US want to convince people that SA leopard should have two or more dots, low domes, dark color, etc otherwise they are mix. Unfortunately it is not true. I have both lighter color and darker color babies.

I thought more about this and the above quote is worth addressing. You have done a lot of research? How? With who? With people trying to pass of mixes as "pure" SA leopards? I have heard numerous stories of this sort of thing happening with some long time tortoise keepers that are considered reputable.

There is no doubt that there are multiple forms of leopards in Southern Africa. I've seen at least two different varieties myself in person. However the type we formerly referred to here in the states as G.p.p., and now refer to as simply South African leopards are all of the same type and all the ones I've been able to trace back to their origin are all coming from the same guy, who happens to be the guy mine came from. If there are other South African types that are known to be "pure" and in circulation here in the US, I have not seen or heard of them. The tortoises that I refer to as South African leopards do not throw babies with single dots on their vertebral scutes. Look at the pic I posted. There are two dozen. None of them look like the babies in your pics.

My source for these tortoises has been involved with reptiles and the reptile community for decades. I have met dozens of people who know him and not one person has ever questioned his integrity or the legitimacy of his claims. I have no hint of any reason to doubt him. Seems to me that the more plausible explanation here is that people trying to sell tortoises of unknown origins as "pure" SA leopards have more to gain convincing others the single dots and all these other morphological traits are more variable, you know, just like the ones they are trying to sell at twice the price of normal leopards to people who don't know better.

Food for thought...

 

[Tom]

@Yvonne G
Do you have babies out of your SA female yet? Has your female ever had contact with any male other then the SA male?

 

[Leopard]

I keep my SA Leopards separately with other normal leopard. I know they are different. There is no chance that your female to contact with my other males. I never put them together. I have other business to make living. This is only my hobby. I am honest person. I don't have to try make a little more money by lying to people.