Are hides necessary

[dolfanjack]

I'm sorry I started this topic, it's to broad. Everyone is confussing a small hide in an indoor encloser as shelter. Thier encloser is their shelter, our houses are their shelter, the planet is their shelter. All I was talking about was a small place where they can hide in their encloser. Would tortoises be more "friendly" if they grew up with no hides? No one one knows. I just thought the topic would make people think.

 

[chadk]

The idea of the small hide in an indoor enclosure is to best represent a natural hide \ shelter in the wild. Does a russian tort sit in the snow during the winter or find\dig a nice deep insulated borrow? If a RT feels threatened, does it try to hide under brush on in a burrow or other safe spot? If a RT is too hot, does it find shelter from the sun?

Does forcing a tort to seem 'more friendly' while ignoring it's need for shelter to feel secure, thermoregulate, increase humidity, etc sound like a good plan? Is having a more friendly tort that critical to me? Not really. I find my torts are pretty friendly as is. They come out of their hides to eat out of my hand just fine. What more do I want? Snuggles?

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

Wow, this is quite a thread. I'm a bit confused as to how you change a tortoises natural instincts? I mean they're natural instincts. An instinct is behaviour that isn't learnt, it's automatic and it exists because it's behaviour that favours survival of the fittest.
So yes, hides are necessary, even in an indoor enclosure, and even if you don't provide them I don't believe it would make your tortoise any more friendly. A tortoise isn't domesticated and there's a reason for that, I don't know why you'd want to try and change that.

 

[dmmj]

don't we see turtles and tortoises seek shelter in the wild? don't they dig burrows? don't waters turtles hide? softshells burrow under sand? I would think all you have to do is look in the wild for plenty of examples of turtles and tortoises who seek shelter and live in burrows.

 

[PeanutbuttER]

Most of human history we did live under the stars, in the open, with no protection, most animals do. Would I want to live that way now, no, but I'm not a reptile.

I actually have to disagree with you on this. A lot of animals do make use of hides in the wild. Be it a log, or a large plant, or a burrow, or a tree or a pile of rocks even. Some make their own (in the case of a burrow or nest) while others use the landscape around them. So, you're really not justified in your statement that most animals do not use hides. Besides, what is pertinent here is whether or not tortoises make use of hides in the wild (or is it snakes. I'm a bit confused about what animal we're originally talking about).

Alot yes, small animals most, but most large animals don't use shelters unless you consider the shade of a tree shelter. Ex. bison, deer, and lions. that was what I was trying to get at.

Also, the history of humanity is defined in part by our ability and tendency to build shelters. That's why "shelter" has been listed as one of the foundational needs for life by Maslow as well as many others.

Modern humans yes, but i was thinking our evolution as part of our history.

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Well, if you're wanting to talk about evolution then you're still not making a valid point. Homo Sapient history are still defined by that move toward sheltered areas (such as forests). I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on as far as your evolution argument is concerned. You don't seem to actually know the facts of the anthropological side of it enough.

[/quote]

We domesticate animals my removing their natural instincts, it takes hundreds/thousands of years to get there but you have to start somewhere. If you want to keep your captive animals as wild as possible go for it thats great, but don't get all over my case if I want to change some of their instincts.

I gotta chuckle out of this... I hope you have hundreds/thousands of years to see your results
[/quote]

I actually did too. Domestication is not something you can accomplish in a lifetime.

 

[dolfanjack]

Most of human history we did live under the stars, in the open, with no protection, most animals do. Would I want to live that way now, no, but I'm not a reptile.

I actually have to disagree with you on this. A lot of animals do make use of hides in the wild. Be it a log, or a large plant, or a burrow, or a tree or a pile of rocks even. Some make their own (in the case of a burrow or nest) while others use the landscape around them. So, you're really not justified in your statement that most animals do not use hides. Besides, what is pertinent here is whether or not tortoises make use of hides in the wild (or is it snakes. I'm a bit confused about what animal we're originally talking about).

Alot yes, small animals most, but most large animals don't use shelters unless you consider the shade of a tree shelter. Ex. bison, deer, and lions. that was what I was trying to get at.

Also, the history of humanity is defined in part by our ability and tendency to build shelters. That's why "shelter" has been listed as one of the foundational needs for life by Maslow as well as many others.

Modern humans yes, but i was thinking our evolution as part of our history.

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Well, if you're wanting to talk about evolution then you're still not making a valid point. Homo Sapient history are still defined by that move toward sheltered areas (such as forests). I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on as far as your evolution argument is concerned. You don't seem to actually know the facts of the anthropological side of it enough.

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We domesticate animals my removing their natural instincts, it takes hundreds/thousands of years to get there but you have to start somewhere. If you want to keep your captive animals as wild as possible go for it thats great, but don't get all over my case if I want to change some of their instincts.

I gotta chuckle out of this... I hope you have hundreds/thousands of years to see your results
[/quote]

I actually did too. Domestication is not something you can accomplish in a lifetime.
[/quote]

I was trying to add some levity to the topic

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So, if the forest is shelter do we need a shelter (hide) in the forest. Why are we taught to build leantos if the forest is already shelter? And if we have a turtle habitat in the forest do they need more shelter (Hide). If I have an outdoor pen and use a 55 gallon rubbermate container as shelter do I need another hide in it? Is an overhang good enough for a hide? If our russian tortoises are use to burrows why is a half log good enough. What hides do captive water turtles use or is the water their shelter and thats all they need. I never hear somone say " cool res habitat but I don't see a hide". I just read a post where the guy had hides in his tortoise pen but one of the posters thought they needed to be tighter. My whole premise is this: if we condition our torts not to use hides will they be more secure over time, not less? I have anecdotal evidence that it does, thats all.

 

[PeanutbuttER]

I was trying to add some levity to the topic

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So, if the forest is shelter do we need a shelter (hide) in the forest. Why are we taught to build leantos if the forest is already shelter? And if we have a turtle habitat in the forest do they need more shelter (Hide). If I have an outdoor pen and use a 55 gallon rubbermate container as shelter do I need another hide in it? Is an overhang good enough for a hide? If our russian tortoises are use to burrows why is a half log good enough. What hides do captive water turtles use or is the water their shelter and thats all they need. I never hear somone say " cool res habitat but I don't see a hide". I just read a post where the guy had hides in his tortoise pen but one of the posters thought they needed to be tighter. My whole premise is this: if we condition our torts not to use hides will they be more secure over time, not less? I have anecdotal evidence that it does, thats all.

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This sounds like a case of not seeing the trees for the forest (or was that forest for the trees)... The forest is a shelter in that it contains essentially unlimited opportunities and niches and holes for the animals to find refuge. So yes, they do use a hide in the forest since the forest supplies these hides to them.

And as far as a lean-to is concerned, how far back in history are you trying to talk. Before you said you were focusing on man's pre-building era, now you're talking about how man HAS built shelters. You're flip flopping.

 

[dolfanjack]

I was trying to add some levity to the topic

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So, if the forest is shelter do we need a shelter (hide) in the forest. Why are we taught to build leantos if the forest is already shelter? And if we have a turtle habitat in the forest do they need more shelter (Hide). If I have an outdoor pen and use a 55 gallon rubbermate container as shelter do I need another hide in it? Is an overhang good enough for a hide? If our russian tortoises are use to burrows why is a half log good enough. What hides do captive water turtles use or is the water their shelter and thats all they need. I never hear somone say " cool res habitat but I don't see a hide". I just read a post where the guy had hides in his tortoise pen but one of the posters thought they needed to be tighter. My whole premise is this: if we condition our torts not to use hides will they be more secure over time, not less? I have anecdotal evidence that it does, thats all.

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This sounds like a case of not seeing the trees for the forest (or was that forest for the trees)... The forest is a shelter in that it contains essentially unlimited opportunities and niches and holes for the animals to find refuge. So yes, they do use a hide in the forest since the forest supplies these hides to them.

And as far as a lean-to is concerned, how far back in history are you trying to talk. Before you said you were focusing on man's pre-building era, now you're talking about how man HAS built shelters. You're flip flopping.

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I wasn't talking pre-human for the lean-to. I'm just trying to talk to so many people and give them examples that nothing makes since anymore. My major in collage was wildlife biology, I understand ecosystems (generally). NERD came up with a ridiculous analogy and I have had to explain my answers since. My position on shelters is this: A tree is not a hide or shelter. A cave, a burrow, a lean-to, a hole in the tree, those are shelters. Modern apes do not live in a shelter. A hammock in a tree is not shelter, and 'most' of human history as I have been taught is we lived like modern apes. Maybe it's just in the definition I was taught. Now can we get back to the original topic, please.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

My whole premise is this: if we condition our torts not to use hides will they be more secure over time, not less? I have anecdotal evidence that it does, thats all.

In my opinion, no. I don't even believe there is an 'if' in the matter. I don't believe you can condition a tortoise not to hide, it would be like conditioning it to not snatch inside it's shell when startled.

 

[terryo]

My whole premise is this: if we condition our torts not to use hides will they be more secure over time, not less? I have anecdotal evidence that it does, thats all.[/quote]

anecdotal evidence: Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy.

In any case.....I think you can conclude now that not many people agree with you, BUT, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and to keep your animals the way you want.

 

[dolfanjack]

My whole premise is this: if we condition our torts not to use hides will they be more secure over time, not less? I have anecdotal evidence that it does, thats all.

anecdotal evidence: Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy.

In any case.....I think you can conclude now that not many people agree with you, BUT, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and to keep your animals the way you want.[/quote]

This post has nothing to do with how I keep my pets. Infact, I have soil in their indoors enclosers to dig in and half log hides for them to hide in. Outside my russian has the run of the yard and garden with many shady areas to hide and my two boxies has a clothing bin with lumps of grass for shade and mud to dig in. They also are not as friendly as some of my boxies in the past that didn't have a place to hide. This is why I asked not to personalize a post, just because I have an idea and ask questions doesn't mean that is how I keep my pets.

 

[terryo]

Unfortunately, reading all your posts, this is what I concluded. And....if you keep your pets so well, why would you even want to ask about something like this, and so adamantly defend it? And.... I'm done now..............

 

[dolfanjack]

Unfortunately, reading all your posts, this is what I concluded. And....if you keep your pets so well, why would you even want to ask about something like this, and so adamantly defend it? And.... I'm done now..............

In the past (early 80's) there was very little info on the care of box turtles and so I kept 3 wc 3 toes in a 20 L with no hides (for eight years)and they adapted very well to their situation. They ate like pigs, never sick, alwasy breed and layed eggs, and was so friendly they would strech their necks out to be petted. And recently I saw somewhere that a breeder of lg consticters recommended not using hides for the snakes so they would grow up and conditioned not to be shy. This sounded reasonable and I wondered if it could be applied to tortoises since I believe I saw the results first hand with my wc turtles. Then The topic went personal and I like to fight

 

[terryo]

This is where I'm coming from.......when I was born, many, many, years ago my Dad had boxies. MY oldest boxie is 32 years old now. We always kept them in the yard. They never came inside, and we never incubated eggs. Many times we found little hatchlings or yearlings. So, there was never a time in my life that I DIDN'T have a boxie. Now I have a tortoise too. We never had a computer, or any kind of written information on how to care for box turtles. In his lifetime, my Dad spent hundreds and hundreds of hours in the woods "herping" before herping was ever spoken of. He always taught me to make my animals fell as happy, and as comfortable as I possibly could, and let them be what they are. Make their environment as close to where they came from, don't try to change them, and most of all learn from them, and be kind to them. So this is what I always try to do. I DON'T like to fight. So to answer your question.....

I have read somewhere (I can't remember where, DOH) not to use any kind of hide when raising large constrictors. The idea was that hides made the snakes insecure when handeled in the open and the last thing you want is a ten ft long insecure snake. So, I was wondering if our tortoises would be more secure with us, and thus more "friendly" if they were not allowed a hide. Any thoughts?

My thoughts are, the only thing I don't allow them to do is hurt themselves. I allow them to do as they would do if they weren't in captivity....hide and feel secure whenever they want to.

 

[dolfanjack]

This is where I'm coming from.......when I was born, many, many, years ago my Dad had boxies. MY oldest boxie is 32 years old now. We always kept them in the yard. They never came inside, and we never incubated eggs. Many times we found little hatchlings or yearlings. So, there was never a time in my life that I DIDN'T have a boxie. Now I have a tortoise too. We never had a computer, or any kind of written information on how to care for box turtles. In his lifetime, my Dad spent hundreds and hundreds of hours in the woods "herping" before herping was ever spoken of. He always taught me to make my animals fell as happy, and as comfortable as I possibly could, and let them be what they are. Make their environment as close to where they came from, don't try to change them, and most of all learn from them, and be kind to them. So this is what I always try to do. I DON'T like to fight. So to answer your question.....

I have read somewhere (I can't remember where, DOH) not to use any kind of hide when raising large constrictors. The idea was that hides made the snakes insecure when handeled in the open and the last thing you want is a ten ft long insecure snake. So, I was wondering if our tortoises would be more secure with us, and thus more "friendly" if they were not allowed a hide. Any thoughts?

My thoughts are, the only thing I don't allow them to do is hurt themselves. I allow them to do as they would do if they weren't in captivity....hide and feel secure whenever they want to.

I was raised trapping animals for their fur, training coon hounds by using live coons (sometimes), and poaching deer in the off season for food. My collage degree is wildlife biology where I learned how to manage wildlife for people to use. We have no torts here and turtles are rare. When my family went to S. Dakota and I caught a western painted turtle I was told the way to keep it was to drill a hole in the shell and chain it up. The only source of information I had was a publication from TFH inc. and the pet shops I bought my boxies from and they said the best way to keep land turtles was in an aquariam. So I guess or different upbringings gives us a little different perspective on our hobby.

 

[Jacqui]

I was raised trapping animals for their fur, training coon hounds by using live coons (sometimes), and poaching deer in the off season for food. My collage degree is wildlife biology where I learned how to manage wildlife for people to use. We have no torts here and turtles are rare. When my family went to S. Dakota and I caught a western painted turtle I was told the way to keep it was to drill a hole in the shell and chain it up. The only source of information I had was a publication from TFH inc. and the pet shops I bought my boxies from and they said the best way to keep land turtles was in an aquariam. So I guess or different upbringings gives us a little different perspective on our hobby.

I amazes me to this day, how ignorant we all use to be with proper care of these special animals. We caused so much unnecessary pain, suffering and death. We still have so much to learn, but at least we are making progress. We have to constantly be willing to increase our knowledge and change our ideas on "proper" care, as new information comes to light. Upbringing does give us each our own special perspective on our hobby, your correct. Nice we can all share the process of changing our outdated ideas together, isn't it?

 

[tglazie]

Wow, this turned weird. As to the notion that humans removed natural instincts from domesticated animals, I'd have to say I disagree with this statement. Certainly, these animals have been selectively bred to embody those traits most desirable. But I wouldn't argue human beings have removed these animals natural instincts. Cows still graze in herds; cocks still fight to defend territory and keep or obtain access to hens; cats still hunt mice and other small animals, despite human offerings of food. I don't think we've so much removed natural instinct as modified them, perhaps accidentally, in the process of selectively breeding these animals. You do see this in the captive turtle and snake trade, with premiums placed on the production of albinos and other designer breeds, but I wouldn't say it is possible to ensure tortoises adapt to us with a 100% rate of success. I think attempting to achieve a more natural state for the tortoise is preferable.

T.G.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Wow, this turned weird. As to the notion that humans removed natural instincts from domesticated animals, I'd have to say I disagree with this statement. Certainly, these animals have been selectively bred to embody those traits most desirable. But I wouldn't argue human beings have removed these animals natural instincts. Cows still graze in herds; cocks still fight to defend territory and keep or obtain access to hens; cats still hunt mice and other small animals, despite human offerings of food. I don't think we've so much removed natural instinct as modified them, perhaps accidentally, in the process of selectively breeding these animals. You do see this in the captive turtle and snake trade, with premiums placed on the production of albinos and other designer breeds, but I wouldn't say it is possible to ensure tortoises adapt to us with a 100% rate of success. I think attempting to achieve a more natural state for the tortoise is preferable.

T.G.

Absolute agreement!

 

[mctlong]

While there are artificial hides (boxes and half logs) in my RT's enclosure, he rarely uses them. Instead, he prefers to burrow underground and bury himself. I strongly feel that tortoises need someplace to hide - whether that be burrows, plants, or artificial hides.

btw, as an archaeologist, I can absolutely assure you that humans have never lived in the open with no protection. Our species would not have survived under those conditions because we are much slower and weaker than those animals that would eat us (lions, and tigers, and bears - oh my!). Our advantage is that we have nice big brains that allow us to build structures and weapons to defend ourselves from other animals. Of course, humans and tortoises are very different, so I'm not sure why we're trying to compare the two groups...

 

[PeanutbuttER]

While there are artificial hides (boxes and half logs) in my RT's enclosure, he rarely uses them. Instead, he prefers to burrow underground and bury himself. I strongly feel that tortoises need someplace to hide - whether that be burrows, plants, or artificial hides.

btw, as an archaeologist, I can absolutely assure you that humans have never lived in the open with no protection. Our species would not have survived under those conditions because we are much slower and weaker than those animals that would eat us (lions, and tigers, and bears - oh my!). Our advantage is that we have nice big brains that allow us to build structures and weapons to defend ourselves from other animals. Of course, humans and tortoises are very different, so I'm not sure why we're trying to compare the two groups...

Archaeologist? That's pretty cool. Are you a professor somewhere then?

BTW, everything you said about humans is what I'd been taught in my biological anthropology classes.