Are hides necessary

[dolfanjack]

I have read somewhere (I can't remember where, DOH) not to use any kind of hide when raising large constrictors. The idea was that hides made the snakes insecure when handeled in the open and the last thing you want is a ten ft long insecure snake. So, I was wondering if our tortoises would be more secure with us, and thus more "friendly" if they were not allowed a hide. Any thoughts?

 

[dmmj]

I can't say 100% but I do believe they are happier and less stressed when they have access to hides, can I prove this scientifically? no but mine do love to hide iin their various hides, also I owned a ball python for almost 20 years and she (monty) had a hide, and she was a well contented snake, of course I think her breed ( ball/royal) may have had something to do with that.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Imagine YOU.. your baby bro./sis.. cousin.. child, etc. right after birth or shortly afterwards.. allowed to or forced to sleep outside under the stars with no cover or protection! Regardless of the weather.

Any other Q?'s.........

NERD

 

[matt41gb]

I think what Terry is trying to say is "yes". (I will answer your question in a less condescending way). They do need a place to hide to feel more secure. I provide all of my red-foots a place that they can get away from each other, the weather, or whatever else. They need to feel their environment touching them to feel secure, plus it needs to be cooler and darker than outside of the hide.

Leaving them to the elements will cause stress. When they come off of the stress is when they are prone to illnesses. The immune system becomes weakened leaving the body unable to fight off disease, or any other sickness/parasite that may be dormant.

I hope this helped answer your question.

-Matt

 

[Jacqui]

First off, maybe we need to clarify what you mean by hide. To me a hide is anything whether manmade or natural (such as a large plant), that a tortoise can get under or into.

Hides are used by the tortoises in a number of ways, first is the feeling of scurity to which your talking. The needs of any tortoise for the sense of security is dependant upon the tortoise and some what to the type. I have both a leopard and two sulcatas whom I would say have very little use of a hide for security. My hingebacks often are on the other end of the scale where some need it and lots of it. Some even want their food dish right next to the hide, or they don't feel comfortable to even eat.

However a hide adds more then security. It gives them a place to get out of the elements be it the sun, rain, or whatever. It gives them a place, where if the hide is just bigger then they are, they might be able to brush/rub their backs which some seem to enjoy. A hide is often also a chance to be in a place with higher humidity levels.

To me (and forgive me if you feel I may be humanizing them), a hide is like a bedroom is to most of us. Sure we can sleep on the couch or chair in the frontroom, but our sleep seems to come easier, is more relaxing, more refreshing when we sleep in our own beds (hides). A hide is like their own special retreat.

So to answer your question, no I don't think they would be more friendly without the hide. I think it is a required part of their life and that without hides we add to their stress, unfriendliness, health issues and so much more.

 

[dmmj]

what's wrong with sleeping on the couch?

 

[ekm5015]

I would say they are necessary for two reasons:

1) It allows them to "hide" and feel more secure. The tort can feel safe from predators when it is not out in the open.

2) Humidity seems to be important to growing a smooth shell. Inside a hide you can make a more humid environment than the rest of the enclosure.

I have three hides in my enclosure for my baby sulcata. He rarely ever uses them though. Try to offer a few different options placed in different areas of the enclosure. Examples would be plants, a log, or an upside down tupperware container with a hole cut in it.

 

[terryo]

Hides come in all different forms. In my box turtle hatchlings vivariums, I pile a load of moss on one side. They dig under that moss for most of the day. Some will stick their heads out to see what's going on, and if they see something they don't like will pull them right back in. Security......BUT.... weren't you talking about snakes?????

 

[dolfanjack]

Imagine YOU.. your baby bro./sis.. cousin.. child, etc. right after birth or shortly afterwards.. allowed to or forced to sleep outside under the stars with no cover or protection! Regardless of the weather.

Any other Q?'s.........

NERD

Most of human history we did live under the stars, in the open, with no protection, most animals do. Would I want to live that way now, no, but I'm not a reptile. I have juvinile boxies without hides and I believe they'er more domesticated because of it. NERD, I would suggest if you want to participate in a thread you keep to the topic and give your opinion with out personalizing, you came off as an A**. Jack

---

I have read somewhere (I can't remember where, DOH) not to use any kind of hide when raising large constrictors. The idea was that hides made the snakes insecure when handeled in the open and the last thing you want is a ten ft long insecure snake. So, I was wondering if our tortoises would be more secure with us, and thus more "friendly" if they were not allowed a hide. Any thoughts?

My apologies for being to vague on my tread, I was thinking of indoor inclosers where weather/preditors wasn't a problem. I allow Tortuga to go outdoors and understand his need to get out of the sun/weather. My torts inside have no need for hides for protection or weather. In the long term success of keeping them I believe that adapting to a life without hides may make them more secure as a captive animal.

---

 

[GBtortoises]

Tortoise seek hiding spots outdoors, whether natural (burrows, underbrush, etc...) to rest and sleep in under and to escape temperature extremes, intense sunlight, dry air and predators. While we humans might realize that they don't have most of those dangers indoors, or in some captive situations, outdoors either, it's doubtful that the tortoises realize that those concerns have been eliminated for them.
Shelters provide not only protection from the elements but security for tortoises too. Almost every tortoise will naturally seek some type of hiding area and in most cases if a suitable one is not provided they will dig down into the substrate to conceal themselves.
To them being constantly exposed to bright lights and heat is no different than being exposed to the outdoor sun without a place to escape it.

 

[PeanutbuttER]

Most of human history we did live under the stars, in the open, with no protection, most animals do. Would I want to live that way now, no, but I'm not a reptile.

I actually have to disagree with you on this. A lot of animals do make use of hides in the wild. Be it a log, or a large plant, or a burrow, or a tree or a pile of rocks even. Some make their own (in the case of a burrow or nest) while others use the landscape around them. So, you're really not justified in your statement that most animals do not use hides. Besides, what is pertinent here is whether or not tortoises make use of hides in the wild (or is it snakes. I'm a bit confused about what animal we're originally talking about).

Also, the history of humanity is defined in part by our ability and tendency to build shelters. That's why "shelter" has been listed as one of the foundational needs for life by Maslow as well as many others.

 

[terryo]

Most of human history we did live under the stars, in the open, with no protection, most animals do. Would I want to live that way now, no, but I'm not a reptile. I have juvinile boxies without hides and I believe they'er more domesticated because of it. NERD, I would suggest if you want to participate in a thread you keep to the topic and give your opinion with out personalizing, you came off as an A**. Jack



What human history are you talking about???????? None that I know of. Most every living thing on the planet looks for shelter of some kind. ESPECIALLY humans. Making a statement like this ....giving YOUR opinion without personalizing......makes you come off looking like a ................ Really!!!

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

No disrespect to you, dolfanjack, but that's not good advice...

Both my torts and my snakes (various pythons and a few native colubrids) have hides, and because they're less stressed, they're more relaxed...which translates to them being more docile (an especially nice attribute in a 16' African Rock python!)...

This doesn't mean they all use their hides everyday (Taergus, the afore-mentioned Rock python rarely does), but they have 'em when they want 'em, and that's one less thing for them to be stressed over..

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Pretty easy to tell who has the sense of humor here.. isn't it.

Throw it out there.. see who bites.. and see who bites back and how!

NERD

 

[tglazie]

The prevailing sentiment in this thread is correct. Animals require hides for security, temperature regulation, humidity regulation, etc. Though tortoises will occasionally or often (depending upon the tortoise in question) spend time away from the hide, sometimes even sleeping away from it, one should always be made available. Also, experiment with hides. Offer a few different types so that the animal may choose between hides. Such variety fosters inquisitiveness in the torts, I find. They also develop patterns as the weather goes from hot to cold, summer to winter.

T.G.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Most of human history we did live under the stars, in the open, with no protection, most animals do. Would I want to live that way now, no, but I'm not a reptile. I have juvinile boxies without hides and I believe they'er more domesticated because of it. NERD, I would suggest if you want to participate in a thread you keep to the topic and give your opinion with out personalizing, you came off as an A**. Jack



What human history are you talking about???????? None that I know of. Most every living thing on the planet looks for shelter of some kind. ESPECIALLY humans. Making a statement like this ....giving YOUR opinion without personalizing......makes you come off looking like a ................ Really!!!

AMEN Sis! I could barely dignify the original question/statements with a response.. which is why I responded the way I did.....

Terry K

 

[terryo]

A well know box turtle breeder and author, said that you know when your box turtle garden is done when you have to search for your boxies. All box turtles dig and hide from predictors, and the elements. Even when they are kept inside, their natural instinct is to dig and to hide. Food, shelter, and a natural environment should be offered, and if we cannot provide this, then we shouldn't have the animal.....IMHO.
Nerd.....you do not have to defend your response to me, as I found nothing wrong with it.

 

[Yvonne G]

Jack:

I think you've already made up your mind about whether to provide a hide or not, and you just wanted us to verify your correctness for you.

You can keep your tortoises any way that you want to. They are, after all, your tortoises. We are here to provide you with the benefit of our experience. Whether or not you take our advice is strictly up to you.

You've asked our opinion, and we've given it. Please don't argue with us. If WE haven't been able to change YOUR mind, why should you think that YOU will be able to change OUR mind?

 

[dolfanjack]

Jack:

I think you've already made up your mind about whether to provide a hide or not, and you just wanted us to verify your correctness for you.

You can keep your tortoises any way that you want to. They are, after all, your tortoises. We are here to provide you with the benefit of our experience. Whether or not you take our advice is strictly up to you.

You've asked our opinion, and we've given it. Please don't argue with us. If WE haven't been able to change YOUR mind, why should you think that YOU will be able to change OUR mind?

I love all your opinions even if I don't agree.. I don't need anyone to justify to me how to keep my pets, I have as much experience as most here. I wanted to participate in a discussion about an aspect of our hobby many people take for granted. I haven't argued with anyone, but people can give their opinion without using the op or his family as an example of the topic. I don't believe I have tried to change anyones mind, all I was saying to NERD was if I was born into a family with no shelter thats is all i would know.

---

Hides come in all different forms. In my box turtle hatchlings vivariums, I pile a load of moss on one side. They dig under that moss for most of the day. Some will stick their heads out to see what's going on, and if they see something they don't like will pull them right back in. Security......BUT.... weren't you talking about snakes?????

No, the idea about no hides was originally about snakes, but my post was would it work with torts.

---

Most of human history we did live under the stars, in the open, with no protection, most animals do. Would I want to live that way now, no, but I'm not a reptile.

I actually have to disagree with you on this. A lot of animals do make use of hides in the wild. Be it a log, or a large plant, or a burrow, or a tree or a pile of rocks even. Some make their own (in the case of a burrow or nest) while others use the landscape around them. So, you're really not justified in your statement that most animals do not use hides. Besides, what is pertinent here is whether or not tortoises make use of hides in the wild (or is it snakes. I'm a bit confused about what animal we're originally talking about).

Alot yes, small animals most, but most large animals don't use shelters unless you consider the shade of a tree shelter. Ex. bison, deer, and lions. that was what I was trying to get at.

Also, the history of humanity is defined in part by our ability and tendency to build shelters. That's why "shelter" has been listed as one of the foundational needs for life by Maslow as well as many others.

Modern humans yes, but i was thinking our evolution as part of our history.

---

Most of human history we did live under the stars, in the open, with no protection, most animals do. Would I want to live that way now, no, but I'm not a reptile. I have juvinile boxies without hides and I believe they'er more domesticated because of it. NERD, I would suggest if you want to participate in a thread you keep to the topic and give your opinion with out personalizing, you came off as an A**. Jack



What human history are you talking about???????? None that I know of. Most every living thing on the planet looks for shelter of some kind. ESPECIALLY humans. Making a statement like this ....giving YOUR opinion without personalizing......makes you come off looking like a ................ Really!!!

I believe in evolution and in evolutionary history. If a tree is shelter then your right, most animals seek shelter. Since this is my thread then my rules, so trees are not shelter, so most animals do not seek shelter including lg mammels, birds, fish ect.
YES

---

Most of human history we did live under the stars, in the open, with no protection, most animals do. Would I want to live that way now, no, but I'm not a reptile. I have juvinile boxies without hides and I believe they'er more domesticated because of it. NERD, I would suggest if you want to participate in a thread you keep to the topic and give your opinion with out personalizing, you came off as an A**. Jack



What human history are you talking about???????? None that I know of. Most every living thing on the planet looks for shelter of some kind. ESPECIALLY humans. Making a statement like this ....giving YOUR opinion without personalizing......makes you come off looking like a ................ Really!!!

AMEN Sis! I could barely dignify the original question/statements with a response.. which is why I responded the way I did.....

Terry K

What about my original most was so outrages you felt the need to be a jerk. All you had to say was turtles/ torts need hides period. NO, you had to be carcastic. I could of been a nube that was asking a ligit question and instead of helping you have to be carcastic. Just a little insight to the type of person you probably are.

---

A well know box turtle breeder and author, said that you know when your box turtle garden is done when you have to search for your boxies. All box turtles dig and hide from predictors, and the elements. Even when they are kept inside, their natural instinct is to dig and to hide. Food, shelter, and a natural environment should be offered, and if we cannot provide this, then we shouldn't have the animal.....IMHO.
Nerd.....you do not have to defend your response to me, as I found nothing wrong with it.

We domesticate animals my removing their natural instincts, it takes hundreds/thousands of years to get there but you have to start somewhere. If you want to keep your captive animals as wild as possible go for it thats great, but don't get all over my case if I want to change some of their instincts.

 

[chadk]

Changing instincts may be fine and dandy in some ways, just be careful as it can lead to stress and unhealthy critters.

As for shelters, I'm afraid you just don't know animasl as much as you think. Fish do use shelter. Fish are very concerned with predators and use all sorts of shelter. It varies from species to species, but it is there. Shelter may come in the form of massive schools, living in the shelter of a sea anemome, living under overhanging branches, living in the deepest darkest spots, taking shelter in a river behind logs and boulders to avoid predators and avoid challenging currents that waste energy, finding ways to avoid being exposed from ospreys and eagles and bigger fish, etc etc etc.

Your example of lions and elephants isn't all that great either. While they don't have to battle rain and snow and cold conditions often, they do need shelter from the sun and will seek it when needed. Most birds have forms of shelter as well. Holes in trees, heavy brush, overhanging structure - you don't see nests just sitting out in open ground for the most part. If they do, as with snow geese, they are in the shelter of a large colony and provide shelter from the elements and predators to their eggs and chicks.

Shelter is essential in the overall health of an animal or human being. The type of shelter can vary greatly, ranging from an igloo that provides insulation, to a tree that provides shelter from the hot sun.

With torts in captivity, their needs will also vary greatly, even within the same species. A russian tort for example, may do well for one person just living on paper towels and having no place to dig and no hides. Chances are, this tort was raised as a hatchling in captivity and does not have any experience with predators or harsh weather conditions. Yet it's need for shelter and the feeling of security are met and it is not stressed out. Another russian tort under the same conditions would be under considerable stress, to the point of leading to death in extreme cases. So I'm afraid a one size fits all answer is not likely. But I'm inlcined to think that most torts will benefit from shelter in the form of substrate and\or hides of sorts. While there may be a few exmaples out there of torts that do great without that, it is not the norm and we should error on the side of caution and consider providing shelter\hides a part of standard good husbandry for our torts.

---

We domesticate animals my removing their natural instincts, it takes hundreds/thousands of years to get there but you have to start somewhere. If you want to keep your captive animals as wild as possible go for it thats great, but don't get all over my case if I want to change some of their instincts.

I gotta chuckle out of this... I hope you have hundreds/thousands of years to see your results

And as another example, you'll find even lions utilize shelter in the form of dens and thickets at certain times (mainly in giving birth and raising cubs):

"Lions are now housed in much larger naturalistic areas; modern recommended guidelines more closely approximate conditions in the wild with closer attention to the lions' needs, highlighting the need for dens in separate areas, elevated positions in both sun and shade where lions can sit and adequate ground cover and drainage as well as sufficient space to roam." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion