A few questions about my upcoming sulcata

[thegame2388]

1. So I know their diet is 80% grass, but is it just any grass? I have a reasonably big backyard with grass that the law mower cuts, so do I just use that? Or do I have go to Home Depot and order some seeds and plant them in the enclosure itself? (I was planning on just gathering up the lawn mower's grass in a bag and feeding him by placing it in the enclosure).

2. What plants should I get to plant (their seeds) in the enclosure through about 3"-4" or coco noir substrate? Not for foods, but for decoration.

3. For humidity, I have a humidifier on a humidistat, but I was thinking about buying another one of those $9 misters, is that okay?

4. I have all the supplies bought and ready to go. Does anyone have any last minute tips?

 

[Tom]

1. I don't know where you got the 80% grass number. They do eat grass, but it doesn't need to be 80%. It can be. It can be more or less than that too. I'd say mine get 50% grass on average. Some days they get all grass. Other days they get mulberry leaves, cactus, or even an occasional pumpkin. No grass on any of those days. Often they get grass mixed with other greens and leaves. They are very adaptable diet wise. The answer to this question depends on the size of the tortoise you are getting. For bigger ones, your yard grass will work great as long as you are SURE there is no "weed n' feed" or other such chemicals on it. For smaller sulcatas you will probably need to grow your own or get those little organic wheat grass pots from the grocery store. Babies do much better with tender young shoots. Here is diet thread for you with all sorts of ideas. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-76744.html

2. Any thing you plant in there will be eaten or trampled in short order. Pots work to protect the plants, but anything you buy at a store will be full of systemic pesticides. I don't have much advice here. I plant stuff outside. Inside has never worked for me.

3. Your plan sounds good, but you'll have to run it and test to to be sure. Not sure what sort of $9 mister you are referring to or what you intend to do with it, but its not a bad idea to have one on hand.

4. Read this: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-79895.html
Also click the links in my signature and read those too.

 

[thegame2388]

Thanks!

 

[thegame2388]

NEW Questions:


1. My enclosure is outside, but in order to make everything work, I have to drill holes in it to put the wiring for the lighting and all that through. Will this make it hard to maintain the CHE temp and humidity??

2. Do you keep the surge protector/wiring OUTSIDE the enclosure or inside?

3. I'm just testing out the habitat and all that, and the CHE looks like it's on, according to the hygrotherm lighting, but it doesn't seem like it's blasting away heat. Sure it's outside but the enclosure has a roof and it's wooden.

4. I don't know if this is a glitch, but I have a digital humidity monitor and it's giving me a different reading compared to the hygrotherm reading. Both are next to each other and touching the floor wooden surface.

 

[Tom]

1. I'd have to see what sort of set up you are talking about and how the lid articulates. I just made a notch at the top for my cord to get in. This way its still under the lid and no rain gets in.

2. I use plastic shoe boxes screwed to the wall to contain all my cord and electrical stuff. I have thermostats, inline electric meters, and all the excess cords inside the shoe boxes. You can see it here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-66867.html

3. Without heavy duty insulation and sealing, a CHE will not be able to keep up outdoors. See the thread above. This thread might help too: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-20527.html

4. Not sure what a "hygrotherm" is. Cheap stuff from the hardware or pet store is often known to be somewhat unreliable and inaccurate. Can you post pics of this equipment? We might have better suggestions if we knew for sure what you are referring to.

 

[Laura]

how big are the ones you will be getting?

 

[thegame2388]

1. I'd have to see what sort of set up you are talking about and how the lid articulates. I just made a notch at the top for my cord to get in. This way its still under the lid and no rain gets in.

2. I use plastic shoe boxes screwed to the wall to contain all my cord and electrical stuff. I have thermostats, inline electric meters, and all the excess cords inside the shoe boxes. You can see it here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-66867.html

3. Without heavy duty insulation and sealing, a CHE will not be able to keep up outdoors. See the thread above. This thread might help too: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-20527.html

4. Not sure what a "hygrotherm" is. Cheap stuff from the hardware or pet store is often known to be somewhat unreliable and inaccurate. Can you post pics of this equipment? We might have better suggestions if we knew for sure what you are referring to.

1. My set up looks almost identical to this: [Imgur](http://i.imgur.com/7D7M1kc.jpg) I was thiking about drilling a hole in the back and having the wire come from there but it would leak the heat, if you will.

2. Very smart idea!

3. There is a ceiling, no insulation. I want it maintained at 80F, but right now, it's at 62F and that's because the roof is slightly open to allow for the wiring to go through....and the CHE doesn't seem to be emitting that much heat....I thought these things got HOT but it's not....

4. I was referring to this, http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0019IHK9Q/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20, which has its own Temp/Humidity monitor. The humidity level seems to be different compared to the digital one I bought.


And Laura, it's for hatchlings.

 

[Tom]

Your link in number 4 isn't working for me, but I found it on a search. I'm not familiar with that product or how well it works, or how accurate it is.

I don't know where you are, but it makes no sense to me to try to raise hatchlings outside in an enclosure like that. It will be too cold on a winter night and too hot on a summer day. Without some substantial insulation, a CHE or even several of them are not going to be able to maintain temps outdoors in an enclosure like that. And if they good, the spots right under the CHE's would be too hot and dry. CHEs are meant to raise the temperature a bit above ambient household temps in a small area. They will not produce enough heat to counteract cold outdoor temps unless they are used in a closed insulated box, and even then they are not something I would use because they concentrate the heat in one small area.

Move it inside and you will have a very easy time. Also an enclosure that size isn't going to last more than a few months. They grow too fast when they are healthy.

We recently had another thread on this same subject recently. Someone else was trying to do the same thing. It doesn't work. Babies belong inside with more stable and warmer temps.

 

[thegame2388]

Your link in number 4 isn't working for me, but I found it on a search. I'm not familiar with that product or how well it works, or how accurate it is.

I don't know where you are, but it makes no sense to me to try to raise hatchlings outside in an enclosure like that. It will be too cold on a winter night and too hot on a summer day. Without some substantial insulation, a CHE or even several of them are not going to be able to maintain temps outdoors in an enclosure like that. And if they good, the spots right under the CHE's would be too hot and dry. CHEs are meant to raise the temperature a bit above ambient household temps in a small area. They will not produce enough heat to counteract cold outdoor temps unless they are used in a closed insulated box, and even then they are not something I would use because they concentrate the heat in one small area.

Move it inside and you will have a very easy time. Also an enclosure that size isn't going to last more than a few months. They grow too fast when they are healthy.

We recently had another thread on this same subject recently. Someone else was trying to do the same thing. It doesn't work. Babies belong inside with more stable and warmer temps.

Thanks! I agree that maintaining temps will be hot, but these sulcatas are native to a part of Africa with much more extreme weather variation.

Regardless, what do you think of keeping my 150w on my 4x3x2 feet enclosure and also getting something like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XDTWN2/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

That would looks super neat!

 

[thegame2388]

And one more thing in addition to that^, can I use cardboard cutouts as insulation and just press them against the inside of the enclosure?

 

[Dizisdalife]

In general cardboard has an R Value, insulating value, of three or four, this is actually lower than the R Value of still air, five. R Value is usually given per inch and there better options than cardboard for insulation. Cardboard inserts will do little to slow the heat loss from your enclosure.

While it is true that the African climate that is the home of sulcata has some extreme temps the animals themselves are adept at finding, or building, micro-climates that mitigate these extremes. As example, they burrow deep into the ground to avoid the hottest of temps and live in a more constant environment.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Dizisdalife is right. In captive enclosures you take away their ability to seek out a different microclimate and self regulate.
So it's up to you to provide the right conditions for them when you put them "in a box".

 

[Tom]

We are trying to tell you that what you want to do is not going to work. You don't seem to want to hear that.

Do yourself a favor and try out what you are proposing for at least a week or two BEFORE you get a tortoise and put it in there. If your climate is mild enough and you put enough heat in there, you might be able to keep it warm enough to keep a baby alive. With enough heat to counteract the cold in an uninsulated outdoor box, you are going to really dry everything out, including the baby. Be aware of this and be careful. You will need a lot of moisture to counter the drying effects. The problem is that a lot of moisture will be really bad if the temperature drops too low, which is likely in an outdoor uninsulated box.

Ask me how I know all this...

 

[thegame2388]

We are trying to tell you that what you want to do is not going to work. You don't seem to want to hear that.

Do yourself a favor and try out what you are proposing for at least a week or two BEFORE you get a tortoise and put it in there. If your climate is mild enough and you put enough heat in there, you might be able to keep it warm enough to keep a baby alive. With enough heat to counteract the cold in an uninsulated outdoor box, you are going to really dry everything out, including the baby. Be aware of this and be careful. You will need a lot of moisture to counter the drying effects. The problem is that a lot of moisture will be really bad if the temperature drops too low, which is likely in an outdoor uninsulated box.

Ask me how I know all this...

I have an UVB bulb which is surprisingly producing more heat than the 150w (the UVB is 100w) and I don't know why this is.

Additionally, I have a personal space heater, here, http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XDTWN2/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20, so that is about 450w of power solely dedicated to heat (UVB light + CHE + this). The average low for this time of year is around 41F. I successfully got the basking spot to around 105F (but this was during the day) and I shut off the basking light (UVB light) at night but if need be, I can always turn it on. I will be testing out the environmental conditions and see how it all plays out.

 

[Dizisdalife]

I have an UVB bulb which is surprisingly producing more heat than the 150w (the UVB is 100w) and I don't know why this is.

The shape of the bulb has an effect on how the energy is focused. The UVB is designed to focus on a spot for basking and the CHE is designed to dissipate the energy for area heating. What you are feeling is the focused energy of the UVB and it will be hotter than what you feel from the CHE.

Additionally, I have a personal space heater, here, http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XDTWN2/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20, so that is about 450w of power solely dedicated to heat (UVB light + CHE + this). The average low for this time of year is around 41F. I successfully got the basking spot to around 105F (but this was during the day) and I shut off the basking light (UVB light) at night but if need be, I can always turn it on. I will be testing out the environmental conditions and see how it all plays out.

I recommend controlling the CHE+This with a thermostat and having the UVB controlled by a timer. It's not healthy for the tortoise to have 24-hr a day "sun".

The average low temp is 41F this time of year, but this controlled environment you are creating needs to keep the temps at a constant, or somewhat constant, temperature of 80F all the way to the extreme low temp that you may have.

 

[Tom]

Here is an analogy that might help: Trying to heat that small uninsulated box on a 41 degree night is like trying to fill a 5 gallon bucket that is full of holes. You will need a large hose with very good water pressure to keep up, and it will be a constant struggle of trying to increase water in and slow down the water out. Now imagine trying to have a gold fish live in that holey bucket while all this is going on. You will be doing the same thing, but with heat energy instead of water, in your outdoor chamber. Either it will get too cold, or your electric bill will skyrocket, and either way it will be bad for a baby tortoise.

To do what you want to do, you need to build or buy a properly insulated box, like the one I linked above, and use some custom made double paned glass windows from Home Depot for the front. This will solve your cold problems, but then you will have to make sure it is in full shade all day every day to make sure it doesn't over heat in the warmer weather.

Why don't you just simplify everything and raise your baby inside, where it is much easier and safer, like everyone else. You can make a nice outdoor enclosure for fair weather days, and it can be indoors with much more stable and controllable conditions. I'm not understanding WHY you are persisting with this.

 

[Yvonne G]

Did anyone ever talk about the electrical plugs, etc. being outside or inside? If not, they should be protected from the weather (dew, rain, etc.)

If you don't have space in the house for your tort table, then set it up in the garage. I don't think outside will work until the weather warms up in the spring.

 

[thegame2388]

I have an UVB bulb which is surprisingly producing more heat than the 150w (the UVB is 100w) and I don't know why this is.

The shape of the bulb has an effect on how the energy is focused. The UVB is designed to focus on a spot for basking and the CHE is designed to dissipate the energy for area heating. What you are feeling is the focused energy of the UVB and it will be hotter than what you feel from the CHE.

Additionally, I have a personal space heater, here, http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XDTWN2/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20, so that is about 450w of power solely dedicated to heat (UVB light + CHE + this). The average low for this time of year is around 41F. I successfully got the basking spot to around 105F (but this was during the day) and I shut off the basking light (UVB light) at night but if need be, I can always turn it on. I will be testing out the environmental conditions and see how it all plays out.

I recommend controlling the CHE+This with a thermostat and having the UVB controlled by a timer. It's not healthy for the tortoise to have 24-hr a day "sun".

The average low temp is 41F this time of year, but this controlled environment you are creating needs to keep the temps at a constant, or somewhat constant, temperature of 80F all the way to the extreme low temp that you may have.

This is exactly what I'm doing.

I understand Tom's analogy and I'm trying to cover every "hole" in the enclosure outside. The plexiglass, the hole with the wires coming in, etc. I put in a 200w persona heater with the 150w CHE and it was able to maintain 82F throughout the night which gets to about 41F on the low side. However, the 150w seems like it really sucks, so I'm upgrading to a 250w one.

As for the garage, that could work but there's no natural sunlight and I'd rather have that during the day than the artificial UVB....I'm only using the UVB for basking at this point.

Not to mention, the warm air humidifier is doing a hell of a job raising the temperature and maintaining it with the humidistat. I'm guess warm air humidifiers are better than ultrasonic cool mist ones?

As for food, is there a website I can go and buy some? Or can I just use my pesticide-free, fertilizer-free backyard grass and cut it up? I'd rather have a bag from an online store though.

 

[Tom]

In my analogy, the holes in the bucket directly compare to the thin uninsulated wooden walls and front glass of your enclosure, not actual holes in the enclosure. Those thin walls and single pane glass or plexi are letting the heat escape.

Also UV rays do not penetrate glass or plexi, so your tortoise won't be getting any more UV than if it were indoors, AND you don't want the enclosure in direct sunshine because it will overheat.

Adding more wattage and heat is not the answer. Throwing more humidity at the problem of huge high wattage desiccating bulbs is not the answer either. I am trying to prevent you from making a mistake here. I think I'm failing.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I think I'm failing.

Not for a lack of trying.

OP, I hope you understand, those of us chiming in are doing so with good intentions. We aren't against a "different" way, we are against ways once tried and failed.
Try to glean the wisdom from those been there done that. Saves time, $ and possibly the life of your tortoise.