Very ill baby russian tortoise

[Louise C]

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the long thread......

I posted here a couple of weeks back about a problem with sticky poo but now this is sorted, poor Henry has become very ill indeed. I bought him from an online breeder in March and was told he was 13 months old. I have since spoken to the breeder last week and found he was in fact only 9 months when I got him (so 13 months now).

Anyhow...last Sat he just suddenly stopped eating and became very lethargic. I started giving him daily soaks to make him feel better and try and get him to eat but he was still the same by the Tues so took him to the specialist reptile vet in our area. He suspected a lung infection so gave antibiotic injection - we have been back twice since for a top up. He is still not eating and is loosing weight fast despite the soaks and tempting foods - I've tried to hand feed but he's having none of it. He is 5cm long and only 40grams.

The second time I saw the vet, he told me Henry had a rather soft shell for his age and should be bigger. in fact he has barely grown since I have him. He went onto question my set up and feeding but since I've got pretty much text book conditions/diet/suppliments the vet said he was worried instead of there being something wrong with Henry for a while as should thrive under that environment. (10% UVB, 36c under heat lamp and 24c in hide - pellets plus home grown weeds eg dandelion and clover, water tray for basking, calcium dusting etc).

The vet suspects he is a "runt" which after reading other posts on this forum possibly means hatchling failure syndrome and thinks the only solution is to give Henry an operation to insert a permanent feeding tube to give him nutrition etc.

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on if the feeding tube is a good idea - if he really does have hatchling failure will this work or is he doomed to die? I'm running out of options here - the only options I seems to have are to do nothing and let him fade, go for the op and hope it works or have him put to sleep.

Previous to last Sat he was very active and eating good - just not growing.

 

[yillt]

I'm so sorry, it sounds dreadful. Keep trying though. I have heard of many stories where tortoises are close to death and then later they are ,massize,healthy and back to normal. We are all praying for your baby. You can do it and so can he.

 

[taza]

I hope some more experienced folks than I on here can advise you, my thoughts are with you, hopefully he will be ok.

 

[Louise C]

Thanks everyone, my heart says I should try everything to save him but my head is saying I don't want to put him through potentially painful treatment.....I think I'll ask the vet what he would do. He's very good and a tortoise owner too.
I'll let you know how we get on.
X

 

[T33's Torts]

Have you read the Russian care sheet here? In your icon picture, it seems his substrate is dry. What are you using?
Please take the time read this if you haven't already.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

 

[Louise C]

Hi T33,

Many thanks for the advice.....t hat was a very old picture....the substrate was commercial tortoise soil from a pet shop but quickly changed that after it stuck all over his legs whenever he did a pee. I've put a more recent photo on (attached) which shows latest substrate choice of grass pellets (tried other stuff also) but now on plain reptile grass which is washed and changed daily upon vet advice to maximise sanitation whilst Henry is ill.

I have read the advice sheet but this seems to conflict with advice I've read in books here in the UK which says that Russians do not tolerate damp conditions and to keep very dry. Now I'm totally confused!

As you can see from my pic his waterbowl in set in so he can bathe if he wants to but have always soaked him 3-4 times a week prior to him getting ill and he pee's quite a lot (even now) so I'm not sure it's a dehydration thing.

I had him in some rehydration salts for his soak this evening and he did seem to pick up while in the water but fell straight asleep when put back in his tortoise table. He's just go nothing left I think.

At the vets tomorrow so we'll see if they think he's strong enough to benefit from the tube feeding.....

 

[yillt]

PELLETS ARE BAD BAD BAD. GET RID OF THEM QUICKLY. THey cause splay leg and other issues also they mould easily. I had them once and I lifted up my water bowl and underneath where clumps do mouldy pellets.

 

[johnsonnboswell]

They can't tolerate cold and wet. They absolutely need moisture in the substrate. In the wild they would burrow until they reach moisture, and their urine would add to the moisture.

Your vet doesn't seem very experienced. Changing the substate daily is expensive & makes you feel useful, but there's no point. To prevent wound infection you'd use damp towels & wash them daily.

I'm not sure what the original substrate was. An addition of a bit of sand & a good bit of compost or good organic soil to coconut coir with the right amount of water is quite clean.

 

[WillTort2]

Hi Louise, sorry to hear your Russian is not thriving. The open top enclosure would be fine for an adult Russian; but for a juvenile I would suggest you adopt the conditions that Tom has tested for young Russians. It would involve a moist, humid and warm covered enclosure.

It would be easy to switch to a coco coir substrate which holds moisture well yet does not mold easily. If you can get your humidity up to 70% in the enclosure with a temperature of 100 F under the basking light and about 80 F on the cool side, I think your tort may have a chance to recover.

To aid recovery Many of the more experienced members advise a baby food soak twice daily for ill tortoises. Take a small container of warm water, baby milk warm, add a jar of baby food (carrots or squash) and soak for 30 minutes keeping the water warm. The tort will absorb moisture and nutrients to aid the recovery. For more info search baby food soak on this forum.

 

[WillTort2]

Here's the link to Tom's Russian care sheet.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

Great information.

 

[Tom]

Also, that coil bulb you are using for UV might be either causing or contributing to your problems. Those can burn tortoise eyes.

Here is my take on the matter: If this baby was started too dry, which many are, the internal organ damage made him a ticking time bomb before you ever got him. Many breeders, experts, books and vets all parrot the same WRONG info about tortoises (and other animals from arid areas) needing things all dry all the time. Its just bad info, its incorrect, it doesn't work in our artificial captive environments, and sadly, many babies don't survive this dry treatment. Your baby might recover and be fine, so don't give up. Get the right substrate, ditch the coil UV bulb, keep up the daily soaks and hope for the best.

Either way, I beg of you to tell the seller, breeder and vet about what you are learning here. It is horrid to me that this goes on all over the world and its so easy to prevent.

 

[Louise C]

Thanks everyone....I'll try and find some of the coco coir stuff but not too sure how to get the moisture in a table - would I have to switch to a vivarium instead? I think he would still need the urgent treatment at the vets though as he's so bad at the moment - lost 10g in the last week and he's tiny already. I think the vet will keep him in when I see him.

Re bad advice......the vet/breeders in the UK recommend keeping tortoises on newspaper for cleanliness which is so far from the advice on here. If this is bad then it is really bad to be telling people this!

If I do manage to get him turned around I will be shouting it from the rooftops don't worry!

X

 

[johnsonnboswell]

You can use a sweater box or Rubbermaid tub as a hospital tank. Completely impervious to water. The switch to moisture holding substrate should've done ASAP.

I can't tell what your current set up is made of, so I can't advise on waterproofing it. Surely there is a way. The time to do it is with the baby in a temporary hospital. You can also partially cover it with a piece of plexiglass to conserve moisture

 

[Louise C]

Thanks,

I've ordered some of the coco stuff to come....little Henry is at the vet hospital now. The vet took a scan of him and he couldn't find anything wrong in terms of shadow on his lungs, blockages and his bones and shell looked good so decided to give him a chance and go ahead with the feeding tube - he'll get the op tomorrow morning and won't be back home until Friday where I'll have to continue feeding him though his tube.

The air is pretty moisture rich up here in Scotland (rains a lot!) so just need to keep the air warm rather than dry I suppose . I think I'm going to look into getting a vivarium anyway as he can't be hibernated so would need to keep him warm throughout winter and not sure the tortoise table could achieve this unless we had the central heating on 24/7.

Fingers crossed everyone....we'll have our baby boy back and the road to recovery.

Thank you so much everyone for you advice and support.

 

[Louise C]

Hi Everyone.....

Just thought I'd update you on Henry........he's still very ill. So ill in fact he has had to have a feeding tube surgically inserted to keep him alive (see pics below). He's had this in about a week now while he's been having tests to establish what is going on. He's had an x-ray and a CT scan (his vet is the reptile specialist at the University of Edinburgh Vet school so lots of resources available - just glad I had insurance!). The test were both clear - no kidney stones, no brittle bones, no abscesses. He's had a negative parasite test and we're waiting on tests coming back for herpes. So far could not get any blood for a blood test.

He's put on weight - from 39 grams to 52 but he's still low and now he's got mucous around his nose and his eyes are swollen. Without knowing what is causing it we just have to treat the symptoms - he's on antibiotics and painkillers and also critical care food which all to go in his tube. His eye problem means he cannot have any substrate in his cage so he's on newspaper temporarily for this reason (I did swap to coco substrate but this just stuck to his eyes with them being all sticky). He gets soaked twice a day in addition to getting fluids through his tube so he is not dehydrated. I've had to move him from a tortoise table to a vivarium to keep the heat and moisture up while he's sick but this has meant I have swapped the UV bulbs for the UV tube light which is a bonus.

I go back to the vets in a weeks time to re-assess him and also get the results from the herpes test. If this is negative the vet has said it is still 50/50 if he survives but we are doing all the right things and it is up to him now. I was warned it could take as long as 6 months to get him to eat again (my vet rescues tortoises and has experience nursing them back to health). If he tests positive for herpes I'll really need to have words with the breeder as this 100% came from them and other tortoises will be at risk.

Soooo we'll persevere with the treatment and give him every chance to turn around. He's such a little guy I do wonder how he can get better but here's hoping for a miracle!

Thanks everyone for your support!

X

 

[taza]

Prayers for your little guy, You are awesome for everything you are doing to help him,

 

[Yvonne G]

Have you gotten rid of the coil-shaped bulb?

 

[Carol S]

I hope he gets well soon.

 

[Jabuticaba]

Poor kiddo! Hope he recovers.


May, Aussies, & THBs
IG: @AUSSOMEAUSSIES

 

[Louise C]

Thanks Taza and Carol, Yvonne, the bulb you can see in the new tank is an infa red heat lamp - the lighting has been changed to a 105cm tube - no more coil! After reading on here about coil bulbs I wonder how can pet suppliers still sell them?

He's still very poorly so it's probably not good odds but we've come so far we may as well give him every chance.

XX