Is Tortoise-Breeding creating a Time-Bomb?

[Anyfoot]

Ok, back on topic.

If the demand is there, there are 2 sources available, cb or wc. What's best, for us to take them from the wild or have source them from a breeder.
You mentioned all those old torts that have been cared for for decades will eventually be homeless. You are assuming that if 1000 juveniles were sold that they all made it to adulthood. With old out dated care I wonder what percentage actually are still around.
With the modern way of care(humidity etc) more will survive and the demand will naturally drop. Of course there will always be the new kid on the block who wants a juvenile, but if cared for correctly it will be only one(or a group).

I don't think there are as many old torts out there as what you think, definitely not as many as that have been sold as juvies.
Now let's assume all torts from now on live to a ripe old age, the only people wanting new juveniles will be newbies, or newbies to a different species. The demand will drop because all those that have cared for their torts correctly won't want anymore, or they may even breed a couple for their own curiosity.
This is a horrible way to look at it but needs to be said. We either have a problem and endanger species in the wild by taking them or we have a potential problem in captivity of too many torts. At least the latter is in our control. If there's no demand there's no point breeding. If all breeders stopped today, humans would some how find a way to get them from the wild, legally or illegally.
Time will come when a breeder only incubated half his/her eggs to slow it up. May not be in our lifetime.

Everyone always points finger at sullies. Its the obvious one, grows big, lays plenty of eggs. They get too big and owners just release them in hope someone else takes them in. I often wonder about the medium size tort like a redfoot. It doesn't get too big, so it is kept indoors behind closed doors in conditions that more than likely will end up in early death. This is not seen because the owner just puts up with it. You can't just put up with a 100lb sully. What's worse, someone releasing or giving away a sully, or someone sending there redfoot to the grave because they can just forget about it in the corner of a room.
Sorry gone off topic with that last paragraph.

 

[JoesMum]

Ok, back on topic.

If the demand is there, there are 2 sources available, cb or wc. What's best, for us to take them from the wild or have source them from a breeder.
You mentioned all those old torts that have been cared for for decades will eventually be homeless. You are assuming that if 1000 juveniles were sold that they all made it to adulthood.

No I am assuming that proportion will and that they'll add to the number in captivity that will already outlive the humans who own them.

With old out dated care I wonder what percentage actually are still around.

No idea, but I think there are more than people think.

With the modern way of care(humidity etc) more will survive and the demand will naturally drop.

Will it? Demand for what?

Of course there will always be the new kid on the block who wants a juvenile, but if cared for correctly it will be only one(or a group)

People like cute. Educating them that cute grows up doesn't seem to work with other pets. Torts are a particular issue because they live so long. Although @Colette keeps [arrots and says there is a potentially a problem there too,

This is a horrible way to look at it but needs to be said. We either have a problem and endanger species in the wild by taking them or we have a potential problem in captivity of too many torts. At least the latter is in our control.

I agree that they're better captive bred than wild caught.

If there's no demand there's no point breeding. If all breeders stopped today, humans would some how find a way to get them from the wild, legally or illegally.
Time will come when a breeder only incubated half his/her eggs to slow it up. May not be in our lifetime.

I am not demanding that breeders stop breeding, I simply asked if others agreed with my concerns that maybe there was a problem waiting to happen in future. How it is dealt with, I don't know.

Everyone always points finger at sullies. Its the obvious one, grows big, lays plenty of eggs. They get too big and owners just release them in hope someone else takes them in. I often wonder about the medium size tort like a redfoot. It doesn't get too big, so it is kept indoors behind closed doors in conditions that more than likely will end up in early death. This is not seen because the owner just puts up with it. You can't just put up with a 100lb sully. What's worse, someone releasing or giving away a sully, or someone sending there redfoot to the grave because they can just forget about it in the corner of a room.
Sorry gone off topic with that last paragraph.

I only mentioned sullies a something that clearly doesn't stay small and cute for long. the kind of people who can rehome a 100lb bulldozer are going to be harder to come by as their population increases than those who can rehome a 7lb testudo.

I agree there's an issue with red foots potentially too.... and there's already a problem with RES being released into the wild.

I think we are closer to agreeing than you think. I started this thread as a discussion piece. I am not claiming to have all, or even any, solutions.

 

[Anyfoot]

I wasn't pulling you on mentioning sullies, it was a 'generalization' of what ive read.

You just said the key word. 'Education'. That can only come from educated people. Those people more often than not are breeders or long term keepers, most certainly not shop keepers who buy in bulk from the wild.

For the demand I'm referring to juveniles. I'll bet there are people out there who buy one, it dies then buy another it dies buy another and so on, lack of education.

 

[juli11]

The demand on CB animals will raise up in the next years! So it's quite important that breeders continue with breeding. The reason is that in the next years won't come so many WC animals so the people only have one solutions- CB animals-. Also the prices will raise up.
One beautiful example is clemmys guttata in Europe. Since we got an import forbidden from the usa I think 4 years ago the demand and the price raised up massively. Until 4 years the price were ca. 40€ per hatchling at the moment the price is by 120€ per hatchling and everybody want them.
The same by testudo. I know many breeder who don't incubate their eggs anymore because nobody want them. In the next years many people will do that and than the demand will raise up again. And than is the question if there are enough adults to breed anymore or if the prices for testudo will raise up same like guttata.

 

[Anyfoot]

The demand on CB animals will raise up in the next years! So it's quite important that breeders continue with breeding. The reason is that in the next years won't come so many WC animals so the people only have one solutions- CB animals-. Also the prices will raise up.
One beautiful example is clemmys guttata in Europe. Since we got an import forbidden from the usa I think 4 years ago the demand and the price raised up massively. Until 4 years the price were ca. 40€ per hatchling at the moment the price is by 120€ per hatchling and everybody want them.
The same by testudo. I know many breeder who don't incubate their eggs anymore because nobody want them. In the next years many people will do that and than the demand will raise up again. And than is the question if there are enough adults to breed anymore or if the prices for testudo will raise up same like guttata.

What do you think will happen when the guttata is very popular and easily available in captivity?

 

[Tom]

I'm not sure this "problem" will come to fruition over here. I don't know about European countries with intrusive government interference in the free market and relatively small populations, but over here its still a relatively free market with 350,000,000+ potential customers and there is no shortage of willing and able homes for adults or babies.

 

[motero]

This same general question is brought up over and over. It seems to be a way to promote a notion that there is a problem. I too, have no trouble selling tortoises of all sizes. Plenty of demand where I live.

 

[JoesMum]

This same general question is brought up over and over. It seems to be a way to promote a notion that there is a problem. I too, have no trouble selling tortoises of all sizes. Plenty of demand where I live.

This notion isn't to promote a notion that there might a problem for breeders trying to sell tortoises. I don't think it ever will be

I created it because I wondered whether the market for mature full grown tortoises is likely to become saturated.

 

[juli11]

What do you think will happen when the guttata is very popular and easily available in captivity?

That could be in the next years.. Because of that that everybody want them now and try to breed them the quantity of available animals will raise up. Than the prices go down and the demand go back. But at the moment the prices raise and raise.. I saw somebody who sell them for 160€..

 

[motero]

Mature tortoises are harder to come by and cost more. The so called over run shelters are over run because they wont let any tortoise go under reasonable terms. They don't get that many and if they rehomed them reasonably they would be out of business. There are plenty of good homes available. Saturated adult market? I don't think so. I have not seen any tortoise that was offered for free adoption not get multiple offers by willing and competent keepers. Will this be a future problem? I doubt it.

 

[JoesMum]

Mature tortoises are harder to come by and cost more. The so called over run shelters are over run because they wont let any tortoise go under reasonable terms. They don't get that many and if they rehomed them reasonably they would be out of business. There are plenty of good homes available. Saturated adult market? I don't think so. I have not seen any tortoise that was offered for free adoption not get multiple offers by willing and competent keepers. Will this be a future problem? I doubt it.

It seems conditions are different around the world which is interesting.

 

[Rue]

I think conditions are very different around the world...it is very interesting - because it colours opinions and advice so strongly. Part of the problem is that we (as in the royal 'we') have a hard time identifying with those other conditions because all we understand is our own.

OT: You have no idea what I paid for my baby...lol, but I paid the going price in my neck of the woods. My baby was local so I had no shipping issues and I met with the breeder who knows what she's doing, so I made a confident purchase. All good.

I did look for an older tortoise to begin with...but all I could find was a yearling Cherryhead with horrible pyramiding...and the owner wanted top $ for it...so I didn't bother. Not a species I wanted, and I didn't want to pay for potential health issues resulting from a poor start.

 

[DPtortiose]

Mature tortoises are harder to come by and cost more. The so called over run shelters are over run because they wont let any tortoise go under reasonable terms. They don't get that many and if they rehomed them reasonably they would be out of business. There are plenty of good homes available. Saturated adult market? I don't think so. I have not seen any tortoise that was offered for free adoption not get multiple offers by willing and competent keepers. Will this be a future problem? I doubt it.

+2 So incredible true. It's hard to find an healthy full grown adult, even on the largest shows in Europe. I only saw a handful on the tables with the last shows I visited. It's incredible frustrating to see shelters with healthy adult animals that aren't cared for properly and hear these shelter claim in the media private keepers are 'unable' to care for these animals.

Honestly you only need to look at the incredible amount of commercialization the hobby has been through the last decade to realize we're only the tip of the iceberg. I used to have to drive across the country to get to a decent store that sells lizards or tortoises. Now the nearest shop is 20 minutes away tops. Not to mention I can buy feeder insects in almost every pet store now. The hobby is getting more and more mainstream every day and supply will continue to rise with it, as it has done over the last decade. It's not necessary a bad thing, I enjoy the hobby very much and I hope more people will enjoy it too. But I'm a bit worried it'll push the hobby back rather then forward. More WC import for example or bad information from petshops.

 

[BrianWI]

I agree, here the demand is high and we won't hit a bottleneck any time soon. They claim all these rescued sulcatas are around, but these "rescues" more often than not seem to be collectors. I am in the midwest and maybe that is different in CA or something.

I would also guess a HUGE number of hatchlings don't make it. Despite the knowledge of their care being better, the desire and reality of doing it are something else. Neglect probably really knocks the number down.

 

[Yvonne G]

Never bred tortoises (and no plans to do so) so that just made me wonder, do those of you who do breed them have good demand? Does it take you a long time to move your babies?

Will and I have no trouble selling all the leopard tortoises we hatch out. 18 are up for sale at this time, and I predict they'll all be sold by this time next week.

 

[Yvonne G]

That's what I'm getting at. The breeders can sell as many as they breed.

In 50 years time, it will be the same demand for young tortoises.

However, the youngsters sold now will be fully mature by then and have humans needing to rehome them. They're 100lb Sulcatas, 7lb Greeks, etc and there will be an awful lot of them.

But, remember, many of those baby tortoises will never grow up. We see it every day here on the Forum. Dead and sick babies.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Supply and demand.

Buy low, sell high. That's what is happening in the US to a great extent right now. ROI is better on two and three year old tortoises (purchased as neonates and grown well for a few years) than CD's or bonds or even the average stock.

I think if you look at British tortoise history, the laws reducing and prohibiting mass wild collected tortoise imports were backed with a range of statistics suggesting that a vast majority of those tortoises died due to winters there. I don't know if there are hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands, but I doubt there are even hundreds of these 40 year old survivalist tortoises there. Do you have any census to suggest otherwise?

Now the new trend is mass breeding and selling globally. Still most neonates won't exceed ten years or so. If they do they got great care, and those keepers often have a plan in place, or a legacy keeper. I'm mixing some US POV in this too.

In the US people lament sulcatas to the point where rescues won't place females with anyone showing an interest in breeding. Yet there are breeders here producing 1000's every year, many of which are sold into eastern Asian countries. There is and will continue to be attrition.

The same could be said for many other pet types, both those that can naturalize and those that readily perish without captive care. On one hand it offers the chance to be engaged in wildlife by people who may not otherwise have that experience while on the other hand it can have the effect of cheapening life.

I stopped breeding to sell in the late 90's because of these concerns. Now I would have considered to keep breeding and selling, as I have begun to do again. Entirely selfish reasons. I like doing it. If I could barter neonates for food and clothes I would, but then again pets to a great extent are in a commercial sense actually luxury items.

I would even more prefer to have been able to find a job where I do wildlife monitoring and census and observation. But even if I did find that job, well they pay sucks, and if you advance or gain upward mobility on that career path, you loose field time, not gain it.

 

[JoesMum]

I don't know if there are hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands, but I doubt there are even hundreds of these 40 year old survivalist tortoises there. Do you have any census to suggest otherwise?

I know of around 15 older torts living within a 5 mile radius of here. There are undoubtedly more. Multiply that out and that's a lot of older torts in the UK.

I asked a debatable question. I have no idea if there is a time-bomb and it's interesting to read others views; especially those in other countries.

 

[Anyfoot]

I know of around 15 older torts living within a 5 mile radius of here. There are undoubtedly more. Multiply that out and that's a lot of older torts in the UK.

I asked a debatable question. I have no idea if there is a time-bomb and it's interesting to read others views; especially those in other countries.

Joe, are the 15 torts all the med species?

 

[JoesMum]

Joe, are the 15 torts all the med species?

Iberas and TGGs