Is Tortoise-Breeding creating a Time-Bomb?

[dmmj]

I’ve raised and bred dogs for near 30yrs , I’m probably done , not because it’s hard to sell puppies . if you really don’t care what happens to them after you get rid of them they’re easy to sell ….. if you are intent on finding them lifelong homes where they will be properly cared for , that’s a whole different story ……… I throw away a dozen or so p. manni eggs every year , because I know 99.9% of the time what the future holds for a $40 turtle ………. Of the 350,000,000 people in the U.S. I think substantially less than 1% is capable or willing to care for a goldfish for it’s entire natural lifetime let alone something like a sulcata …… there is a reason you don’t see many adults , and i'm sure most realize what it is ………… you need to get on the world wide web to run across the small group of people you see on this message board , at least I do , and you still see folks on these message boards with exotic animals that can’t even imagine providing veterinary care for an animal that may have cost $100 let alone a $10 red eared slider ……. Where I’m from I know of no native species of reptile that needs their population reduced artificially by the collection of wild caught animals for the pet trade …….. from what I see , peoples respect for life is not on the increase , there is always going to be a market for disposable pets …….

Funny you should mention that I had a goldfish live for 14 years that I won from the fair it was not expected to live more than a few days 14 years later I finally died in a nice big Aquarium

 

[leigti]

But, remember, many of those baby tortoises will never grow up. We see it every day here on the Forum. Dead and sick babies.

I've always heard this when the argument comes up on whether tortoises are being overbred Does it bother anybody else that it is just a given that most of the babies will never make it to adulthood? I guess both sides could use that as their argument, but it's very sad.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Does it bother anybody else that it is just a given that most of the babies will never make it to adulthood? it's very sad.

Very sad indeed. Part of the reason I've no interest in producing sulcata any longer. I'm very picky regarding who the hatchlings would go to. Then the flip side of russians collected in the wild, I feel we must consider those collecting for the money that it provides them to help feed their families in a "legal" to them manner.

 

[leigti]

Very sad indeed. Part of the reason I've no interest in producing sulcata any longer. I'm very picky regarding who the hatchlings would go to. Then the flip side of russians collected in the wild, I feel we must consider those collecting for the money that it provides them to help feed their families in a "legal" to them manner.

I really don't know much about how Russians are collected in the wild. I would always prefer captive breeding to taking animals out of the wild.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

ROI is a pretty simple concept. If you put ten dollar into a system, it is the measure of how long it will take to get that ten dollars back. It can also be looked at in another way, real estate people use the one term to mean a few things. If I put ten dollars into a system, how much return does that system provide each year? That answer can come as $ or a %.

For a solar installation as one example, if the system costs $30,000 and our utility bill goes from $200/month to zero then the ROI is 150 months or 12 and a half years. Thereafter the utility bill continues to be zero and the cost of the solar is now gone, so at that point the ROI calculation changes. There can be other factors brought in that make the ROI more specific, like opportunity cost of the capital outlay, most simply balanced as the 'time value' of money, or whatever the simple interest rate is at the time, or more complicated as in "had you built a spare room on your house" could you have made more money on a monthly basis renting that room out. In both cases property tax will go up, and they both bring compromises to your home some aesthetic, some practical.

So now that YOU KNOW I KNOW how complicated this can all be I'll use a turtle example and then NOT answer your further questions about vet bills, cost of food blah blah blah.

Say you already have a turtle room or outdoor place. So like a house the initial capital costs is not going to be put into the calculation.

You buy three 'perfect' Burmese Star tortoises on day one of year one. You raise then 'the right way' with optimal conditions and you have three four to six inch tortoises one year later. That initial cost was say $900 to $1,200 each (both prices on Fauna right now). Right now also on fauna are three year hold backs ( I bet I could grow them smooth that big in one year) selling for $2000 plus. But let's keep it at three years for our ROI.

$1200 out at day one, $2000 back in at day 365 of year three (four years), That is $200 return a year on your initial cost, or about 25%(per year). 25% ROI and you can get short fingers and run for president. Well the tortoise took care, say I figure about $1.00/week as the marginal costs to care for them. Marginal cost refers to the added extra amount to the whole of my operation that is already up and running. That $1.00 a week is for all three.

So for all 3 that was $3600 out, and $6,000 back, less $208 (that $1.00/week) yields $2,192.00 or 60% over the four years. Now you can be a global banker.

And no damn kidding there are risks. Also and no damn kidding I was not talking about sulcatas or leos or russians.

Almost on que...
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=586568

 

[Tom]

Almost on que...
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=586568

So if he bought the babies for $1200 each, spent 3 years raising them and is now selling them for $1500 each, his ROI is $100 per year per tortoise.

I don't consider that all that good. Daily soaks, daily food growing and garden tending, daily food collection and dispension, food bowl cleaning, daily water bowl cleaning and refilling, daily cage spot cleaning, the electric bill, bulb replacements, soaking tubs, substrate, and the biggest expenditure of all: your time. That's 365 days of care for $100 per tortoise. I can't pay my bills at that rate.

It seems to me, all things considered, this seller is taking a big loss, unless he got these super cheap as babies from a friend. The buyer, in this case, will make out like a bandit though. What a HUGE bargain! If I needed more, I would seriously consider this deal. You get a three year head start for a pittance.

 

[Neal]

So are we, as a human race, creating a time bomb by continuing to breed (and import) these animals at pets?

Will we, or are we getting, to a point where we have an unsustainable number of larger older animals that need solitary outdoor space in captivity?

Over to you?

This is a good debate and good discussion. As a breeder, I can appreciate being challenged on my contributions to the hobby because it causes me to pause and remember why I continue to do what I do.

I can only guess, but perhaps the time will come in the US where there will be more tortoises than homes. Maybe not in the near future, but I think it's a valid concern. I personally don't think the best answer is to put pressure on breeders to reduce their numbers. That will never work realistically for a lot of reasons already discussed (supply & demand, ROI incentive, etc...).

I think a better solution is to increase the number of homes capable of housing tortoises. Educating people, especially young people, and getting them interested in having caring for a tortoise would be the means to ensure the sustainability of future captive populations. That is where I have spent a lot of my time and efforts lately. Volunteering at my daughters schools, working with the youth at my church and just trying to take advantage of any opportunity that may come up. We left for vacation a couple weeks ago and I asked a friend to help with the tortoises while we were gone. He brought over his 12 year old son who is now hooked and will be getting his own very soon.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

So if he bought the babies for $1200 each, spent 3 years raising them and is now selling them for $1500 each, his ROI is $100 per year per tortoise.

I don't consider that all that good. Daily soaks, daily food growing and garden tending, daily food collection and dispension, food bowl cleaning, daily water bowl cleaning and refilling, daily cage spot cleaning, the electric bill, bulb replacements, soaking tubs, substrate, and the biggest expenditure of all: your time. That's 365 days of care for $100 per tortoise. I can't pay my bills at that rate.

It seems to me, all things considered, this seller is taking a big loss, unless he got these super cheap as babies from a friend. The buyer, in this case, will make out like a bandit though. What a HUGE bargain! If I needed more, I would seriously consider this deal. You get a three year head start for a pittance.

You are misquoting my numbers and have ignored economies of scale. And I would use the cold and dry method like you recommend .

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I think a better solution is to increase the number of homes capable of housing tortoises. Educating people, especially young people, and getting them interested in having caring for a tortoise would be the means to ensure the sustainability of future captive populations. That is where I have spent a lot of my time and efforts lately. Volunteering at my daughters schools, working with the youth at my church and just trying to take advantage of any opportunity that may come up. We left for vacation a couple weeks ago and I asked a friend to help with the tortoises while we were gone. He brought over his 12 year old son who is now hooked and will be getting his own very soon.

BEST ANSWER ever Neal.

 

[Tom]

You are misquoting my numbers and have ignored economies of scale. And I would use the cold and dry method like you recommend .

I didn't quote your numbers. I used the numbers from the ad you linked.

What does economy of scale have to do with this? So if I raised 100 tortoises for three years, I'd get more money? But I'd also get 100 times the work and expenses…

No horseplay Mister Man. This is a serious discussion!!!

 

[BrianWI]

What does economy of scale have to do with this? So if I raised 100 tortoises for three years, I'd get more money? But I'd also get 100 times the work and expenses…

No, you wouldn't. That is what economy of scale means. Food is cheaper in quantity, work in bulk can be streamlined. A little automation. Business 101.

 

[Tom]

No, you wouldn't. That is what economy of scale means. Food is cheaper in quantity, work in bulk can be streamlined. A little automation. Business 101.

Food is not cheaper in quantity if you are not buying food. I grow my own food. Therefore the time it takes to tend the crops and collect the food simply increases per tortoise.

I know all about business. Why don't you just leave me alone before we both get into trouble. You don't care what I have to say and I don't care what you have to say, so how about you quit trying to engage someone who would rather not deal with you?

 

[BrianWI]

Food is not cheaper in quantity if you are not buying food. I grow my own food. Therefore the time it takes to tend the crops and collect the food simply increases per tortoise.

Then you aren't doing it right. Better tools, better methods, anything done in volume should be way cheaper.

 

[leigti]

Time is money.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Time is a tool for measuring all things against. One bar in most graphs is time. Money has time value, but money is not time, nor is time money.

If I told you I made a $1,000,000.00 it would be meaningless as it could be my life time earning or the past year. Same amount of $$ but one of those millions is bigger than the other, in a POV, that I don't share but is very common.

Tom if you use a 5 gallon bucket to collect weeds for your tortoises and you only fill half way, the whole cost of the buckets is measured against half of its use. Fill it all the way and now the whole cost of the bucket is the same, but measured against what the bucket can do, resource carried by the bucket, cost half as much, based only on the cost of the bucket. I would bet that it might take you say 8 minutes to fill the bucket half way, and maybe ten minutes to fill it all the way. People who measure factory workers do this kind of analytic and seek the best marginal use of any one resource against another.

For me, if my garage is insulated for any tortoises at all, and heated and cooled for those tortoise. That is a fixed cost. I can keep adding tortoises to the garage to some extent without needing more heating or cooling or insulation. Those marginal tortoises (the few more) do not add to the fixed cost of the garage as a facility. Now that I have solar, the cost to heat and cool went down and will be returned in about 5 years. If I add more enclosures the marginal enclosure cost is substrate and an actual light, and perhaps the enclosure itself. When I buy one bag of substrate is costs $30/bag, when I buy a pallet is costs $12 per bag. Cost "per" goes down. That is economies to scale.

I have a pretty reasonable grasp of both micro and macro economics, frankly the principles are very near those most used in ecology. When I was in many ecology courses I found the names of the principles in both disciplines are often the same as well. I have an unrecognized/diploma-ed graduate education in economics.

"Allocation of scarce resources over competing ends" is the one sentence summation in both economics and ecology. All resources are scarce in varying situations and conditions.

 

[BrianWI]

Time is a tool for measuring all things against. One bar in most graphs is time. Money has time value, but money is not time, nor is time money.

If I told you I made a $1,000,000.00 it would be meaningless as it could be my life time earning or the past year. Same amount of $$ but one of those millions is bigger than the other, in a POV, that I don't share but is very common.

Tom if you use a 5 gallon bucket to collect weeds for your tortoises and you only fill half way, the whole cost of the buckets is measured against half of its use. Fill it all the way and now the whole cost of the bucket is the same, but measured against what the bucket can do, resource carried by the bucket, cost half as much, based only on the cost of the bucket. I would bet that it might take you say 8 minutes to fill the bucket half way, and maybe ten minutes to fill it all the way. People who measure factory workers do this kind of analytic and seek the best marginal use of any one resource against another.

For me, if my garage is insulated for any tortoises at all, and heated and cooled for those tortoise. That is a fixed cost. I can keep adding tortoises to the garage to some extent without needing more heating or cooling or insulation. Those marginal tortoises (the few more) do not add to the fixed cost of the garage as a facility. Now that I have solar, the cost to heat and cool went down and will be returned in about 5 years. If I add more enclosures the marginal enclosure cost is substrate and an actual light, and perhaps the enclosure itself. When I buy one bag of substrate is costs $30/bag, when I buy a pallet is costs $12 per bag. Cost "per" goes down. That is economies to scale.

I have a pretty reasonable grasp of both micro and macro economics, frankly the principles are very near those most used in ecology. When I was in many ecology courses I found the names of the principles in both disciplines are often the same as well. I have an unrecognized/diploma-ed graduate education in economics.

"Allocation of scarce resources over competing ends" is the one sentence summation in both economics and ecology. All resources are scarce in varying situations and conditions.

Very good explanation w/ specifics for the topic at hand.

 

[leigti]

Time is money.

I was just putting in a little smart Alec statement because of all the bickering back and forth. For some people time is worth more than money and for others money is worth more than time.

 

[Tom]

Time is a tool for measuring all things against. One bar in most graphs is time. Money has time value, but money is not time, nor is time money.

If I told you I made a $1,000,000.00 it would be meaningless as it could be my life time earning or the past year. Same amount of $$ but one of those millions is bigger than the other, in a POV, that I don't share but is very common.

Tom if you use a 5 gallon bucket to collect weeds for your tortoises and you only fill half way, the whole cost of the buckets is measured against half of its use. Fill it all the way and now the whole cost of the bucket is the same, but measured against what the bucket can do, resource carried by the bucket, cost half as much, based only on the cost of the bucket. I would bet that it might take you say 8 minutes to fill the bucket half way, and maybe ten minutes to fill it all the way. People who measure factory workers do this kind of analytic and seek the best marginal use of any one resource against another.

For me, if my garage is insulated for any tortoises at all, and heated and cooled for those tortoise. That is a fixed cost. I can keep adding tortoises to the garage to some extent without needing more heating or cooling or insulation. Those marginal tortoises (the few more) do not add to the fixed cost of the garage as a facility. Now that I have solar, the cost to heat and cool went down and will be returned in about 5 years. If I add more enclosures the marginal enclosure cost is substrate and an actual light, and perhaps the enclosure itself. When I buy one bag of substrate is costs $30/bag, when I buy a pallet is costs $12 per bag. Cost "per" goes down. That is economies to scale.

I have a pretty reasonable grasp of both micro and macro economics, frankly the principles are very near those most used in ecology. When I was in many ecology courses I found the names of the principles in both disciplines are often the same as well. I have an unrecognized/diploma-ed graduate education in economics.

"Allocation of scarce resources over competing ends" is the one sentence summation in both economics and ecology. All resources are scarce in varying situations and conditions.

Yes Will, I understand these concepts, but the reality in regards to tortoise keeping does not line up with the theories you propose. Perhaps if someone were doing this "factory" style these concepts could apply, but for someone like me, they don't. I think quality would suffer if I were to use "mass production" techniques.

My bucket takes about 15 minutes to fill up. It takes 7.5 minutes to fill it halfway. I don't know where you've derived your numbers from. Are you counting the 20 seconds that it takes to walk to the barn to get the bucket and scissors? Why would the second half of the bucket take a quarter of the time to fill up? The second half of my bucket takes the same amount of time to fill up as the first half. What am I missing? Where did you shave off 3/4 of the bucket filling time to do the second half?

I get the part about no additional cost for heating a room that is already heated, but each enclosure in that room still needs a basking lamp and all the other amenities. When the tortoises get large enough to stay outside, each group will need shelters and heated night boxes. You would have to spread out the babies as they gain size, so more resources and supplies would be needed even if your garage was already heated.

Not trying to be argumentative, but your examples don't hold water. I buy substrate for $12 a bag right now whether I get one bag or 10 pallets. The cost per bag is the same. I've already asked about volume discounts, and I've had no luck trying to go around the retailer and buy direct either.

Certainly in some industries and for some supplies purchasing in bulk quantities is a way to keep costs down, but I don't see that happening for a small time tortoise farmer. Water dishes and lumber are already at rock bottom prices. I tried to order a full truck load of slumpstone block (14 pallets) to save money and I could not get the price per block any cheaper than buying a single block at Home Depot. I called several contractor friends, landscape supply places, construction supply places, and no one could sell me the block cheaper than HD in any quantity. Not with a resale license, not with any sort of volume discount, and not with any "bro" deals.

I could build my boxes cheaper, but I don't think they'd be as efficient at holding heat in, so I'm not sure I would save money over time.

In my case, I'm doing things in bulk already, and saving money where it can be saved. I don't think my cost per tortoise would be cheaper with 100 tortoises vs. 10. So that takes me back to a reward of $300 per tortoise for 3 full years of my time, based on the link. At that rate, I'd have to raise and sell 1000 high end tortoises each year to make a living. I don't think there is enough time in a day for me to do what I do for 1000 tortoises every day, seven days a week, 365 days a year.

All of this takes me back to disagreeing with your initial premise of:

Buy low, sell high. That's what is happening in the US to a great extent right now. ROI is better on two and three year old tortoises (purchased as neonates and grown well for a few years) than CD's or bonds or even the average stock.

From where I'm sitting and the way I do things, my ROI is not better with tortoises than CD's bonds or an average stock. How is that for debating the topic?

 

[jaizei]

Yes Will, I understand these concepts, but the reality in regards to tortoise keeping does not line up with the theories you propose. Perhaps if someone were doing this "factory" style these concepts could apply, but for someone like me, they don't. I think quality would suffer if I were to use "mass production" techniques.

My bucket takes about 15 minutes to fill up. It takes 7.5 minutes to fill it halfway. I don't know where you've derived your numbers from. Are you counting the 20 seconds that it takes to walk to the barn to get the bucket and scissors? Why would the second half of the bucket take a quarter of the time to fill up? The second half of my bucket takes the same amount of time to fill up as the first half. What am I missing? Where did you shave off 3/4 of the bucket filling time to do the second half?

I get the part about no additional cost for heating a room that is already heated, but each enclosure in that room still needs a basking lamp and all the other amenities. When the tortoises get large enough to stay outside, each group will need shelters and heated night boxes. You would have to spread out the babies as they gain size, so more resources and supplies would be needed even if your garage was already heated.

Not trying to be argumentative, but your examples don't hold water. I buy substrate for $12 a bag right now whether I get one bag or 10 pallets. The cost per bag is the same. I've already asked about volume discounts, and I've had no luck trying to go around the retailer and buy direct either.

Certainly in some industries and for some supplies purchasing in bulk quantities is a way to keep costs down, but I don't see that happening for a small time tortoise farmer. Water dishes and lumber are already at rock bottom prices. I tried to order a full truck load of slumpstone block (14 pallets) to save money and I could not get the price per block any cheaper than buying a single block at Home Depot. I called several contractor friends, landscape supply places, construction supply places, and no one could sell me the block cheaper than HD in any quantity. Not with a resale license, not with any sort of volume discount, and not with any "bro" deals.

I could build my boxes cheaper, but I don't think they'd be as efficient at holding heat in, so I'm not sure I would save money over time.

In my case, I'm doing things in bulk already, and saving money where it can be saved. I don't think my cost per tortoise would be cheaper with 100 tortoises vs. 10. So that takes me back to a reward of $300 per tortoise for 3 full years of my time, based on the link. At that rate, I'd have to raise and sell 1000 high end tortoises each year to make a living. I don't think there is enough time in a day for me to do what I do for 1000 tortoises every day, seven days a week, 365 days a year.

Do you have accounts set up at Home Depot and the landscape or construction supplier?

 

[Tom]

Do you have accounts set up at Home Depot and the landscape or construction supplier?

No, but I asked if I could set something up and become a regular customer, and they said no. The HD price is the same with or without an account. The only discount I could get was with a military ID. My contractor friends and family members do have accounts, and long standing business relationships with their suppliers, and their prices came back higher than HD. When pressed for an explanation, they said HD does so much volume that they get a better price break.