Is Tortoise-Breeding creating a Time-Bomb?

JoesMum

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This one has been bothering me. It's not just a UK thing, but I am going to use my country as an example.

Here in the UK, a large number of (typically Greek) tortoises were imported 40-60 years ago that have been living solitary lives in someone's backyard. They graze the summer away and every winter they're boxed and hibernated.

They're pre-CITES. No papers. Can't be sold. Can't be exported and hence can't be returned to the wild.

The people who bought them are ageing. They're starting to die or move to smaller homes. Their torts may well have another 50 years and more ahead of them.

The owner's children may be in a position to take over like my husband, or they may have an obvious candidate friend (@collette is one of these people)... or there's a problem.

I predict the problem is going to get worse in the next couple of decades as more of these torts who have been quietly living beneath the radar need new homes.

They're not cute little babies that are attractive to new keepers (Joe weighs 7lb) and they need plenty of outdoor space, but our island is crowded and gardens are getting smaller.

It's undoubtedly a similar story in other countries round the world - pet tortoises outlive their humans.

New tortoises are being bred as pets in large numbers and adding to the number in captivity. In some (non EU) countries wild torts continue to be caught/imported and kept as pets too.

Realistically these pet trade animals are never going to be returned to the wild. Who knows where they originated from?

This problem isn't getting smaller; it's getting bigger with every cute clutch of hatchlings a breeder hatches, no matter how good the breeder is.

So are we, as a human race, creating a time bomb by continuing to breed (and import) these animals at pets?

Will we, or are we getting, to a point where we have an unsustainable number of larger older animals that need solitary outdoor space in captivity?

Over to you?
 

TortoiseWarrior

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Hmmmmm....... I wonder cause they don't make it back to their natural habitat. If a owner dies or they never make it through the pet trade, going back is slim next to none. Its a good point. I can't wait for other takes on this.
 

WithLisa

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I don't think the beautiful old imports are a problem. As far as I know they are very popular and hard to get.
But way too many hatchlings are bred every year, they are so cheap already, you can get Hermanns for 30€ here. I'm sure there are much more young tortoises than people with enough space to care for adults (especially when many of those adults are pyramided and suffering of MBD because they were never kept outside).

I'm quite shocked that you can easily buy even sulcata hatchlings here in Middle Europe. I believe there are only a handful of people that can (and want) to keep adult sulcatas appropriately in our climate. What will happen to those hatchlings in 10 years?
 

JoesMum

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I'm just amazed that there are so few responses! I would have thought the breeders would have swung in
 

Tidgy's Dad

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Interesting point.
No tortoise lives that long with a family here though, as far as i can establish.
My Tidgy has a chap who has been prepared and hopefully will take good care of her when the time comes.
it is important that people are aware of the possible longevity of their tortoise charges and should be encouraged to make arrangements for their future, but for the tortoises currently in that position, I guess one must put trust and hope in the people's families and animal rescue organizations..
 

dmmj

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I am sort of unclear about what you are worried about. Are you concerned there will be too many tortoises and not enough people?
 

Tom

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Never bred tortoises (and no plans to do so) so that just made me wonder, do those of you who do breed them have good demand? Does it take you a long time to move your babies?

If I produced 1000 more than I do, they would all sell in a heartbeat.
 

JoesMum

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I am sort of unclear about what you are worried about. Are you concerned there will be too many tortoises and not enough people?
Basically yes.

Someone commented that they thought there was high demand for the mature animals, but that's not my observation and the numbers of these animals available is going to increase, probably quite rapidly.

Young animals can be kept indoors relatively easily, but those like Joe who have been outdoors 24/7 for the last 50 summers come with a prerequisite of a decent size garden being available.
 

JoesMum

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Supply and demand.
Never bred tortoises (and no plans to do so) so that just made me wonder, do those of you who do breed them have good demand? Does it take you a long time to move your babies?
If I produced 1000 more than I do, they would all sell in a heartbeat.
That's what I'm getting at. The breeders can sell as many as they breed.

In 50 years time, it will be the same demand for young tortoises.

However, the youngsters sold now will be fully mature by then and have humans needing to rehome them. They're 100lb Sulcatas, 7lb Greeks, etc and there will be an awful lot of them.
 

Anyfoot

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That's what I'm getting at. The breeders can sell as many as they breed.

In 50 years time, it will be the same demand for young tortoises.

However, the youngsters sold now will be fully mature by then and have humans needing to rehome them. They're 100lb Sulcatas, 7lb Greeks, etc and there will be an awful lot of them.
This is something I think about quite often. Maybe the days of juveniles being cared for incorrectly are gradually disappearing and more will survive to adulthood, then demand will drop, if a breeder is struggling to sell s/he will naturally slow down on breeding.
Also whilst ever there are wild imports there is obviously a demand.
I always assumed the ultimate goal was to stop wild caught and replace with captive bred.
 

WithLisa

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Someone commented that they thought there was high demand for the mature animals, but that's not my observation and the numbers of these animals available is going to increase, probably quite rapidly.
No, definitely not for adults, but beautiful old wc (especially females!) are selling quite well over here for horrendous prices. Hatchlings are very cheap, the demand is small, but they are bred anyway (I guess it's just fun to have some cute hatchlings every year :rolleyes:) and I often read that rescues are full of cb males that no one wants. :(
 

WithLisa

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It was possible to apply for papers when those laws were invented. I believe it's still possible to get papers with pictures and witnesses as proof. Maybe difficult, but possible if one wants to legally adopt their tortoises out.
 

Anyfoot

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It's very difficult to get papers apparently. You would have to apply if you wanted to sell.
It can be done. I got one of my redfoots off a guy in Scotland. He had 3 adult Greeks that he said I could have too(for free). He wasn't allowed to sell them without papers. I got the impression he couldn't be bothered to get papers and would rather give them away.(probably a cost involved)
He gave me the redfoot for free too.
I don't think it's illegal to own a testudo without papers, but it is illegal to sell one without papers. I may be wrong.
 

JoesMum

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It can be done. I got one of my redfoots off a guy in Scotland. He had 3 adult Greeks that he said I could have too(for free). He wasn't allowed to sell them without papers. I got the impression he couldn't be bothered to get papers and would rather give them away.(probably a cost involved)
Yeahit does cost.
I don't think it's illegal to own a testudo without papers, but it is illegal to sell one without papers. I may be wrong.
You are correct

Either way, papers are a different issue to the topic of this thread.
 

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