Urate or gallbladder stone?

[Ray--Opo]

Rose found this on the patio floor.
Is it a urate or gallbladder stone?
It is larger than a golf ball.
What ever it must have hurt to pass.
Opo exsples pasty urates all the time. He finally is drinking water from his water tray.
This has got me worried. This is Rose's hand. She has very small hands. Nonetheless it is still big.

 

[Ray--Opo]

The way I read it is the urates develops in the gallbladder.
Is that correct or can they develope in the kidneys also?

 

[Ray--Opo]

 

[Tom]

Urates collect like this in the urinary bladder or in the cloaca. There are three factors that tend to make this happen:
1. Lack of hydration.
2. Too much protein.
3. Not enough exercise.

You are lucky this one passed. This is your wake-up call. What to do about it:
1. More soaks, more sprinklers, more puddles. Have a shallow pond built.
2. Any clover, alfalfa, plantain weeds, or original Mazuri in the diet? I'd cut back on those things and add more grass, grass hay, or grass hay pellets. Opuntia pads are good too, and have the added benefit of adding more hydration.
3. How large is the enclosure? Is there plenty of shade so that Opo can walk around during the day without getting too hot?

 

[zovick]

The way I read it is the urates develops in the gallbladder.
Is that correct or can they develope in the kidneys also?

No matter where it developed, that is a ball of hardened urates. It may have been building up for quite a while. I would recommend following Tom's suggestions to prevent a recurrence of the problem.

 

[Ray--Opo]

Urates collect like this in the urinary bladder or in the cloaca. There are three factors that tend to make this happen:
1. Lack of hydration.
2. Too much protein.
3. Not enough exercise.

You are lucky this one passed. This is your wake-up call. What to do about it:
1. More soaks, more sprinklers, more puddles. Have a shallow pond built.
2. Any clover, alfalfa, plantain weeds, or original Mazuri in the diet? I'd cut back on those things and add more grass, grass hay, or grass hay pellets. Opuntia pads are good too, and have the added benefit of adding more hydration.
3. How large is the enclosure? Is there plenty of shade so that Opo can walk around during the day without getting too hot?

I have all the bases covered. Large backyard, plenty of shady areas. I need to get another soaking tray. He still uses it but Opo is out growing it. I will say I am feeding Opo to much mazuri after reading posts here. I will cut back on the mazuri. Opo gets plenty of cactus pads. I have about 10 to 12 cactus plants,some are 6' tall. I will add hay to his diet. Opo stays outside and he has a enclosure that is 4' x 4'. Where I live in Florida, the winters are mild. Opo probably has to stay in his enclosure all day. Maybe 10 days in the winter.
I put the sprinkler on him everyday, and yesterday just had a water mister come in the mail. I have 2 plastic trays that cover 90% of the floor in the enclosure. I use Reptibark and pour water in on top of the Reptibark and the trays hold the excess water.
I definitely will upgrade his water options and alter his diet.
I think the stone probably originally started in the winter months. So I will figure out some soaking options during winter. At 85lbs he is hard to lift to set him in a tub.
Thanks for the input.

 

[Ray--Opo]

No matter where it developed, that is a ball of hardened urates. It may have been building up for quite a while. I would recommend following Tom's suggestions to prevent a recurrence of the problem.

I agree, the winter months Opo has a dryer environment. Will definitely make the changes needed.
Thanks for the info.

 

[Tom]

I have all the bases covered. Large backyard, plenty of shady areas. I need to get another soaking tray. He still uses it but Opo is out growing it. I will say I am feeding Opo to much mazuri after reading posts here. I will cut back on the mazuri. Opo gets plenty of cactus pads. I have about 10 to 12 cactus plants,some are 6' tall. I will add hay to his diet. Opo stays outside and he has a enclosure that is 4' x 4'. Where I live in Florida, the winters are mild. Opo probably has to stay in his enclosure all day. Maybe 10 days in the winter.
I put the sprinkler on him everyday, and yesterday just had a water mister come in the mail. I have 2 plastic trays that cover 90% of the floor in the enclosure. I use Reptibark and pour water in on top of the Reptibark and the trays hold the excess water.
I definitely will upgrade his water options and alter his diet.
I think the stone probably originally started in the winter months. So I will figure out some soaking options during winter. At 85lbs he is hard to lift to set him in a tub.
Thanks for the input.

Friends in Florida just scatter pasture grass seed all around their tortoise yards and it seems to grow just fine. Real grass (pasture grass, not hardware store lawn seed...) is the best possible diet you could feed him. If grass just isn't available, then grass hay should be the majority of the diet. Cactus pads a couple times per week make a nice addition. You can get pasture seed at local feed stores that sell horse stuff, or online. I'd get a few and see what does well at your place.

In your climate, added humidity and substrate inside the night box probably isn't necessary, tough it should hurt anything either.

On those rare FL cold spells in winter, as long as temps are up in to the 50s, I would let him out to graze and walk. At 85 pounds, he won't cool quickly, and he can go back inside his box to warm up as needed. I set the box thermostats to 86 during cold winter spells.

 

[Ray--Opo]

Friends in Florida just scatter pasture grass seed all around their tortoise yards and it seems to grow just fine. Real grass (pasture grass, not hardware store lawn seed...) is the best possible diet you could feed him. If grass just isn't available, then grass hay should be the majority of the diet. Cactus pads a couple times per week make a nice addition. You can get pasture seed at local feed stores that sell horse stuff, or online. I'd get a few and see what does well at your place.

In your climate, added humidity and substrate inside the night box probably isn't necessary, tough it should hurt anything either.

On those rare FL cold spells in winter, as long as temps are up in to the 50s, I would let him out to graze and walk. At 85 pounds, he won't cool quickly, and he can go back inside his box to warm up as needed. I set the box thermostats to 86 during cold winter spells.

Yes 50° if it is sunny and no wind. I will let Opo outside. My backyard has healthy bahia grass. Do you think that bahia is good enough? Also Opo's urine is like egg whites. That has been going on a month now.

 

[Wpagey]

Friends in Florida just scatter pasture grass seed all around their tortoise yards and it seems to grow just fine. Real grass (pasture grass, not hardware store lawn seed...) is the best possible diet you could feed him. If grass just isn't available, then grass hay should be the majority of the diet. Cactus pads a couple times per week make a nice addition. You can get pasture seed at local feed stores that sell horse stuff, or online. I'd get a few and see what does well at your place.

In your climate, added humidity and substrate inside the night box probably isn't necessary, tough it should hurt anything either.

On those rare FL cold spells in winter, as long as temps are up in to the 50s, I would let him out to graze and walk. At 85 pounds, he won't cool quickly, and he can go back inside his box to warm up as needed. I set the box thermostats to 86 during cold winter spells.

Hi Tom,

Is this a good example of "pasture grass seed"? My search yielded MANY results. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MV1Z8TP/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

 

[Tom]

I think Bahia is fine. I don't have first hand experience with it, but I have not ever heard any reason to not let them eat it.

Those urates/urine, are within the realm of normal. Hopefully now that that big chunk passed, he will keep passing the normal stuff.

 

[Tom]

Hi Tom,

Is this a good example of "pasture grass seed"? My search yielded MANY results. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MV1Z8TP/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

Again, I have no first hand experience, but that one looks good to me, I would use it. It is intended to be eaten by animals, in contrast to lawn seed which is intended to look green and pretty and sometimes kill pests. Lawn seed usually has all sorts of weird additives in it.

I've used this one with excellent results for many years:

Peaceful Valley Premium Horse Irrigated Pasture Mix

Developed for working horses, mares, and foals. Ryegrass, Orchardgrass, Clover, and Hay & Graze Alfalfa.

www.groworganic.com

I have tried the above mix side-by-side with many other seed mixes and types of grasses. It always outperforms the competition and gives me many many cuts to feed out.

 

[Ray--Opo]

Again, I have no first hand experience, but that one looks good to me, I would use it. It is intended to be eaten by animals, in contrast to lawn seed which is intended to look green and pretty and sometimes kill pests. Lawn seed usually has all sorts of weird additives in it.

I've used this one with excellent results for many years:

Peaceful Valley Premium Horse Irrigated Pasture Mix

Developed for working horses, mares, and foals. Ryegrass, Orchardgrass, Clover, and Hay & Graze Alfalfa.

www.groworganic.com

I have tried the above mix side-by-side with many other seed mixes and types of grasses. It always outperforms the competition and gives me many many cuts to feed out.

Do you need to let it grow out to 3.5ft? Or can you keep it cut back like a normal yard? Is it a perennial or a annual type seed? I hope that isn't a dumb question. 🤣
I also made a vet appointment for Friday. I am going to have a x-ray just to make sure Opo is clear of stones.

 

[Tom]

Do you need to let it grow out to 3.5ft? Or can you keep it cut back like a normal yard? Is it a perennial or a annual type seed? I hope that isn't a dumb question. 🤣
I also made a vet appointment for Friday. I am going to have a x-ray just to make sure Opo is clear of stones.

I cut it and feed it out when it somewhere around 8-12 inches tall. I didn't even know it could grow to 3.5 feet. I've grown it all sorts of ways. Pots, plots, raised planters...

That Xray is a good idea.

 

[Ray--Opo]

I cut it and feed it out when it somewhere around 8-12 inches tall. I didn't even know it could grow to 3.5 feet. I've grown it all sorts of ways. Pots, plots, raised planters...

That Xray is a good idea.

Thanks Tom, I think I will seed a section of the backyard. I think I will try the seed Wpagey suggested by growing it in trays. Which was one of the options the company gave.
I had a vet appointment for July 3rd for a x-ray. Before loading Opo up, I called to see if they were open. They were closed for the 4th of July. The receptionist must have forgotten about the holiday.
I think it was a blessing in disguise. If the vet would have seen that stone. She might have done something aggressive to get rid of it. A few more days and Opo passing it on his own. Could have been the better way.
Do you have a idea how long it might have taken for the stone to grow that large?

 

[Tom]

Do you have a idea how long it might have taken for the stone to grow that large?

No way of knowing. Many variables there. A vet who has done lots of bladder stone surgeries might have a better idea. They might have data from when they've seen a tortoise with no stone and then later with a stone. Because of the terrible care advice offered for most DTs, I bet some of the CA or AZ Docs might have a better idea than I ever could. I've seen lots of the finished "product", but I have no way of knowing if it took weeks, months or years to amass.

 

[Ray--Opo]

Thanks Tom, I think I will seed a section of the backyard. I think I will try the seed Wpagey suggested by growing it in trays. Which was one of the options the company gave.
I had a vet appointment for July 3rd for a x-ray. Before loading Opo up, I called to see if they were open. They were closed for the 4th of July. The receptionist must have forgotten about the holiday.
I think it was a blessing in disguise. If the vet would have seen that stone. She might have done something aggressive to get rid of it. A few more days and Opo passing it on his own. Could have been the better way.
Do you have a idea how long it might have taken for the stone to grow that large?

Here is Opo's x-ray, vet says everything looks good. She said it would be hard to know how long the stone took to get that big. She said to try and get a better method for soaking. Also to get away from store bought foods as much as possible. I was feeding Opo a little to much water spinach and the winter months to much mazuri. Also found out that the dandelion I was feeding Opo. Was store bought, it is called Italian dandelion and is part of the spinach family. I will look and see what that type of dandelion is compromised of.

 

[zolasmum]

Here is Opo's x-ray, vet says everything looks good. She said it would be hard to know how long the stone took to get that big. She said to try and get a better method for soaking. Also to get away from store bought foods as much as possible. I was feeding Opo a little to much water spinach and the winter months to much mazuri. Also found out that the dandelion I was feeding Opo. Was store bought, it is called Italian dandelion and is part of the spinach family. I will look and see what that type of dandelion is compromised of.
View attachment 359628View attachment 359629

Congratulations, Ray (and Opo) -you must be so relieved - and you know you will never let it happen again !
I'm impressed the vet managed to get him on the Xray table.!
Angie

 

[Ray--Opo]

Congratulations, Ray (and Opo) -you must be so relieved - and you know you will never let it happen again !
I'm impressed the vet managed to get him on the Xray table.!
Angie

My vet is a small woman. She made sure her son was there to help lift Opo. They have a cart that has a hydraulic platform. So they slid Opo with the tray that was underneath him. Onto their cart and then the hydraulic table lifted Opo to the height of the x-ray machine platform. Then they lifted Opo a few inches, to get him over to the platform. Without the tray that was on my cart. This is my cart that I used to transfer Opo. Since I am handicapped, my van has a power ramp that extendes out for my wheelchair. So we just wheel Opo up the ramp into the van.

 

[Ray--Opo]

Congratulations, Ray (and Opo) -you must be so relieved - and you know you will never let it happen again !
I'm impressed the vet managed to get him on the Xray table.!
Angie

Well the situation might have changed. I was in the van last night because I didn't have my wheelchair. Rose was sending me texts of the x-rays. One must have not downloaded and I missed it. Just saw it about 30min ago.It shows a spot that might be a stone according to the vet. Now I need to call the vet and see what needs to be done. Rose said the vet said we will need to have it checked periodically. As most of you know, Rose is from the Philippines. Sometimes we have a little miscommunication with english. So there are times when I will miss something. Rose says the vet said if it is a stone. It's not that large and Opo should pass it. Like I said I will talk with the vet.