Tortoises in captivity - The whole 9 yards

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kbaker

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My city includes tortoises as an exotic animal. When I asked for clarification, it is basically to include what they want and when they want to. So if I get no complaints against me, I am fine. If people complain about me or my tortoises, I go before a judge and my tortoise will be taken away because keeping exotic animals in my city is illegal.
 

StudentoftheReptile

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kbaker said:
My city includes tortoises as an exotic animal. When I asked for clarification, it is basically to include what they want and when they want to. So if I get no complaints against me, I am fine. If people complain about me or my tortoises, I go before a judge and my tortoise will be taken away because keeping exotic animals in my city is illegal.

Case in point.

Im sorry to hear you have this to contend with. hopefully, no complaints?


Will said:
StudentoftheReptile said:
Well, I was very ready to kiss this forum good-bye (and in many ways, still am).


Why?

Will

If you weren't around for it a couple weeks ago, its not important enough to rehash the details. In a nutshell, I let the, uh..."deliberate ignorance" of a few get to me a little too personally. But as I said in my first post of this thread, I've decided not to take it too seriously. More than a few folks have reminded me that there are more important things to focus on than get too riled up about some ostriches that are content to keep their heads in the sand on some issues.
 

terryo

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If you weren't around for it a couple weeks ago, its not important enough to rehash the details. In a nutshell, I let the, uh..."deliberate ignorance" of a few get to me a little too personally. But as I said in my first post of this thread, I've decided not to take it too seriously. More than a few folks have reminded me that there are more important things to focus on than get too riled up about some ostriches that are content to keep their heads in the sand on some issues.

I agree. You are a wonderful contributor here on this forum, and nothing should ever be taken personally, but even if you do, that is no reason to leave. There are lots of things I do that are not conventional, and as I always say...it's just how I do things, and my opinion. What a boring world it would be if we all did everything the same, and agreed on everything. I notice that it's a very difficult thing for some people to respect other's opinions at times, and we've lost some really great people that used to contribute so much to this forum, because of that. Stay..........you are needed here.
 

Terry Allan Hall

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terryo said:
I agree. You are a wonderful contributor here on this forum, and nothing should ever be taken personally, but even if you do, that is no reason to leave. There are lots of things I do that are not conventional, and as I always say...it's just how I do things, and my opinion. What a boring world it would be if we all did everything the same, and agreed on everything. I notice that it's a very difficult thing for some people to respect other's opinions at times, and we've lost some really great people that used to contribute so much to this forum, because of that. Stay..........you are needed here.

Well stated! :D
 

Tom

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Well this IS in the debatable section soooooo,

TerryO, I hold you in the highest esteem and consider you a friend. My tone is conversational, and this is in no way a personal attack on you or your beliefs. Just a discussion of the points you brought to the table.

For the sake of argument, lets say that YOUR branch of PETA really was just interested in helping animals, doing good deeds, and NOT interested in the rest of the parties real intentions. Your branch still helped, raised funds and generally lended credibility to an organization that DOES participate in illegal, unethical, terrorist activities (so listed by the FBI, not something I made up). I though of several analogies, but they will all belittle my point. My point is that, if you are part of an organization that does bad things, it does not matter if YOU don't actually do the bad deeds with your own hands does it? You DO know that PETA, the HSUS and their affiliates like the ALF do BAD deeds don't you? Many people wish to write of the bad stuff as internet or media propaganda and false. It is not. I have witnessed it with my own eyes Terry. I am not some paid talking head on the news, I am someone you know, and I am telling you that PETA does really bad things to people and to animals in an effort to further their agendas, and it is run by horribly unscrupulous people who live in million dollar homes, drive Mercedes and BMWs bought with YOUR donated money, and literally, LITERALLY, laugh about it publicly with the people who they supposedly oppose, yet invite over for dinner (two of my bosses). Okay enough of the guilty by association stuff...

Second point: I have been to more than one slaughter house. My wife has too. I also heard animals screaming. They were being killed... There was blood and guts everywhere. There were gutters that were literally running with the blood of animals. How else do you get the job done? I didn't see anything inhumane. No animals were being tortured. The employees went about their work with professionalism and efficiency. The process of becoming a bunch pieces of edible meat is certainly not pleasant or neat, but it was carried out as humanely as possible from what I saw. Certainly much more pleasant than being caught by lions and eaten alive, *** end first. Like any task, it could be done at home by each person on an individual level, but this is just not practical, and would lead to a heck of a lot more animal suffering and unsanitary conditions than allowing it to be done on a wholesale level by professionals with professional facilities and government oversight. At the school I attended, we were required to euthanize prey animals for the many carnivores that were housed there. The cruelty and inhumanity that I witnessed at the hands of squeamish amateurs was disgusting. I would stay and participate to educate them and finish their botched jobs in an effort to minimize suffering. Based on this, and other logical points (like sanitation), I am glad that we have an industry of professionals to carry out this important but grim and emotionally charged, task. Some people just don't have the stomach for killing. That's fine. Our current society allows them that luxury. But if this is a "Don't eat meat because animals have to die" thing, then that is a totally different discussion than "inhumane" treatment at a slaughterhouse.
 

terryo

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Tom, you know how much I respect you and also call you friend, and knowing you have hands on information, I could never dispute your post. Also, I DO know all the illegal, and unethical things that they do. I was never a part of those things. (just want to add that IMO, sometimes being radical is the only way. not just with rescuing animals) I was into the primate rescue end of things. There were some things that were done, and at that time I didn't care how they were done, only that the end result was to rescue. I could never help with money, because I had none to spare. I would never consider myself guilty by association, because I and many others only cared about the rescuing and helping part, and there was nothing we could do anyway. Besides all this they do have many good accomplishments in their cap.
I was never criticized for having box turtles, and lizards, and snakes (all my sons, not mine) dogs or cats.
As far as the slaughter house goes, IMO, you would have to be going "under-cover" to see the cruelty that goes on. Anyone can see these tapes. Many, many, many years ago ...for me...and I'm glad I'm out of it now.
The ban that they are proposing would effect people in your business the most. I am against the ban, as I own tortoises and box turtles too, and have many friends who own also.
But all this is totally OT but I understand where you are coming from Tom.
 

ascott

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Wow....I am officially insulted, as one of the superior humans referenced....however, I am grown and so what, I will put it in its place and continue to read the posts that interest me and scroll past the ones that have no value, oh, IMHO that is.
 

StudentoftheReptile

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Angela, perhaps it is late in the day and I am weary from watching my kids all day, but I cannot tell if your post was sarcastic or not, or even what it is in reference to. Can you clarify for my curiousity?
 

taytay3391

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Wait, so if I humanely kill a person then chop them up and use all parts effectively....it's ok? Because its better than getting eaten *** end alive by a lion?

And I think I must be confused because I read slaughter of animals and Jews of holocaust... In the same sentence... We're you seriously comparing the two? I come from a Jewish father... I don't even know how to respond!
 

EricIvins

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taytay3391 said:
Wait, so if I humanely kill a person then chop them up and use all parts effectively....it's ok? Because its better than getting eaten *** end alive by a lion?

And I think I must be confused because I read slaughter of animals and Jews of holocaust... In the same sentence... We're you seriously comparing the two? I come from a Jewish father... I don't even know how to respond!

This is the point where the Plane is on fire and spiraling to the ground........Please go ahead and finish it off.......I'm sure we would all love to see another thread closed because of off topic, out of context interjection.......
 

wellington

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taytay3391 said:
Wait, so if I humanely kill a person then chop them up and use all parts effectively....it's ok? Because its better than getting eaten *** end alive by a lion?

And I think I must be confused because I read slaughter of animals and Jews of holocaust... In the same sentence... We're you seriously comparing the two? I come from a Jewish father... I don't even know how to respond!
/quote]

Did you read the original thread? This is where that part came in.

But in reality, when the term “animal rights” is used, it is most often referring to a notion that animals have equal (if not greater) rights than human beings. Many people believe that keeping an animal in captivity for any reason is equal to holding a human prison; that the slaughtering of food animals such as cattle and poultry is the same as what Jews suffered through during the Holocaust…and so on.
Now, people have the “right” (pun intended) to believe whatever they want, but if one has even an intermediate understanding of the mental capacity of most animal species compared to that of humans, they will know that comparing the two is comparing apples to oranges. I’m not going to dive into a long discussion regarding intelligence or emotional capacity, because I will concur there are some exceptional examples in the animal kingdom, both on the species and on the individual level.

Before anyone gets offended or starts ranting, read the original thread. This thread is going good so far and is very interesting. If everyone reads the original thread they will know what the bits and pieces being taken from it, is really being referred to.[/b]
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I see.

I've lurked here for years at the urging to join by a moderator. I have been in here a great deal. There are 'pop' icons in here for sure, some folks with sincere interest, and most who confuse liking something with being good at doing that something.

I have read most chelonian centric English published scientific peer reviewed literature available since the mid 60's, with a strong slant on what can be grabbed from the internet or with ILL as a procrastinating grad student.

I've worked in a couple of zoos, slaughter houses (peoples' ignorance of them is amusing to me), BioPharmas as an LATg, pet shops, and production farms. I've also done several years of fieldwork with a variety of chelonians, as well as several other taxa. I built a very large private chelonian zoo for an individual featured on a POV episode on PBS. I have several firsts in both zoos and fieldwork related to my interest in these animals.

Some of the, in retrospect, funniest things from zoo work was getting calls from people about what to do - like feeding their Iguana - then spending maybe 10 to 20 minutes essentially orally narrating a book for them, with many caller interruptions etc. All, only to have the call end with "well I've been feeding them Iceburg for a month now and it's doing fine" click.

One thing I got out of grad school was overcoming my big deficit in quantitative skills (my wife would argue that point). In that cast off ignorance I learned what a standard distribution is.

For every learned person here their is an ignorant one, smart to stupid, tactful to inconsiderate (me on that dichotomy).

Well, I have come to see that a great many people have not only math-phobia, but literacy phobia as well. People learn by being 'emoted' into a point of view, they don't actually listen, question in silence, and learn, they join an opinion, they have the popular knowledge.

Those who learn by emotional signals are frequently among the first to sound off alarms and engage in arm waving. Couldn't be a better way to know that those are not the ones to listen to.

One of the most revealing matters as it relates to this forum are all those who warn about the difficulties of this species or that. They are all difficult, really they are. Just some have had the husbandry kinks worked out better than others. Sometimes you just get lucky too, with an individual or small group that defy poor husbandry and thrive. These end up serving as the model for what best to try, and improve on, in that species' husbandry learning curve.

If everyone here only responded with a phrase that began with " in my experience . . . " the crap posts that sent you to the edge of leaving would not have occurred, no? Of course then you would have to parse out observation from interpretation of those experiences.

Listserves are a tool, not a church, or local tavern, use it as you see fit.

Will

StudentoftheReptile said:
kbaker said:
My city includes tortoises as an exotic animal. When I asked for clarification, it is basically to include what they want and when they want to. So if I get no complaints against me, I am fine. If people complain about me or my tortoises, I go before a judge and my tortoise will be taken away because keeping exotic animals in my city is illegal.

Case in point.

Im sorry to hear you have this to contend with. hopefully, no complaints?


Will said:
StudentoftheReptile said:
Well, I was very ready to kiss this forum good-bye (and in many ways, still am).


Why?

Will

If you weren't around for it a couple weeks ago, its not important enough to rehash the details. In a nutshell, I let the, uh..."deliberate ignorance" of a few get to me a little too personally. But as I said in my first post of this thread, I've decided not to take it too seriously. More than a few folks have reminded me that there are more important things to focus on than get too riled up about some ostriches that are content to keep their heads in the sand on some issues.

 

taytay3391

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EricIvins said:
This is the point where the Plane is on fire and spiraling to the ground........Please go ahead and finish it off.......I'm sure we would all love to see another thread closed because of off topic, out of context interjection.......

Gah I really can't stand this place anymore. Please go on. I will stop with my meaningless and stupid interjections. Thanks for the entertainment tfo
 

StudentoftheReptile

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taytay3391 said:
Wait, so if I humanely kill a person then chop them up and use all parts effectively....it's ok? Because its better than getting eaten *** end alive by a lion?

And I think I must be confused because I read slaughter of animals and Jews of holocaust... In the same sentence... We're you seriously comparing the two? I come from a Jewish father... I don't even know how to respond!

Like Eric and Barb pointed out already, you clearly have not read the thread in its entirety and took a few statements a little out of context as a result.

I am not comparing the two at all. I was merely illustrating that many animal rights activists do...literally. I've seen youtube videos created by some of these people, in the effort to turn every person on the planet into a vegan, showing clips of chickens on a farm side by side to photos from the Holocaust.

And to some of these people, you cannot argue with them. Which is ironic, because in their mind, it's okay for THEM to rescue and care for animals and continue to keep them in captivity in the first place.....but the rest of the world cannot. I understand there are ignorant irresponsible people out there that have no business owning animals. We can debate on the ratio, but in reality, there is no feasible way to regulate it so why try?
 

CactusVinnie

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Student,
I was once at the same point as you were, but... for only one - but persistent- detractor and a few ignorants that make me regret the time afforded, when I could have been helping someone else with an advice, it was not worthy to lose contact with THE OTHERS, interesting people.

As for the "keeper" vs "owner" attitude, and cheap, "PETA"-style, idiotic approach on animals, or the stupidity of laws and their inefficience to offer real protection, we share the same view.

I will check the threads that made you consider leaving, always interested in the ways reason is rejected and fought against- ignorance is bliss, since it confers invincibility and self-confidence: you will never find a real ignorant having doubts, and you will never win by convincing him he's wrong.
What to do?? Stick to the ones that understand reason as you do- no guarantee that we will achieve something just by being together, but guarantee that we will regret even more if not doing that and let them loose to roam freely and leveling all that poor world of ours...
 

terryo

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This will be my last post on this thread. I really find it sad that people don't respect other's opinions. Instead of name calling and criticizing people's "approach on animals", why can't we just say we don't agree with how people deal with situations involving rescuing or caring for their animals? Why is your approach to do something the right way? There are many people who care for their animals differently, with great results. Then there are others, who think they are doing the best they can, with obviously bad results. These are the people that need a kind word and some direction.
Everyone thinks their way is the right way. If I go someplace...any place...and I see a sick, deformed, animal who is in pain and tortured every day of their life, and I see the suffering in their eyes, pleading for help, I do something about it, anyway I can. I just don't walk away and try to forget that face. So, my "idiotic approach" to saving an animal might not be the same as yours, but it doesn't make it the wrong way to do things. And please don't tell me about the "law". If the law allows these things to happen, then maybe it should be broken. Let's try to remember that everyone who doesn't agree with you, isn't ignorant.
If the ban is passed I wonder how many of us will still own, sell, breed, and rescue reptiles.


Just had to add one more thing...I was talking about myself, and am no longer affiliated with PETA or any other organization.
 

ascott

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If I go someplace...any place...and I see a sick, deformed, animal who is in pain and tortured every day of their life, and I see the suffering in their eyes, pleading for help, I do something about it, anyway I can. I just don't walk away and try to forget that face. So, my "idiotic approach" to saving an animal might not be the same as yours, but it doesn't make it the wrong way to do things. And please don't tell me about the "law". If the law allows these things to happen, then maybe it should be broken. Let's try to remember that everyone who doesn't agree with you, isn't ignorant.
If the ban is passed I wonder how many of us will still own, sell, breed, and rescue reptiles.

Perfectly expressed Terry-- I am and will always be on that train right with you....

I will be the one waiving the "Im a feeling, loving and compassionate idiot, jump on board with the rest of the villagers from Crazytown" flag...;)

I learned along time ago--there are some rules and laws made just to be overthrown...always.
 
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