Tortoises in captivity - The whole 9 yards

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terryo

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ascott said:
If I go someplace...any place...and I see a sick, deformed, animal who is in pain and tortured every day of their life, and I see the suffering in their eyes, pleading for help, I do something about it, anyway I can. I just don't walk away and try to forget that face. So, my "idiotic approach" to saving an animal might not be the same as yours, but it doesn't make it the wrong way to do things. And please don't tell me about the "law". If the law allows these things to happen, then maybe it should be broken. Let's try to remember that everyone who doesn't agree with you, isn't ignorant.
If the ban is passed I wonder how many of us will still own, sell, breed, and rescue reptiles.

Perfectly expressed Terry-- I am and will always be on that train right with you....

I will be the one waiving the "Im a feeling, loving and compassionate idiot, jump on board with the rest of the villagers from Crazytown" flag...;)

I learned along time ago--there are some rules and laws made just to be overthrown...always.

Especially coming from you, Angela, that means so much to me.
 

Tom

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terryo said:
This will be my last post on this thread. I really find it sad that people don't respect other's opinions. Instead of name calling and criticizing people's "approach on animals", why can't we just say we don't agree with how people deal with situations involving rescuing or caring for their animals? Why is your approach to do something the right way?

My interpretation is that while there are certainly lots of good people with good intentions out there in the world, and YOU are certainly one of them, but that PETA, and other animals rights groups, are inherently bad, do bad things, hurt good people. Personally I wish that everyone had your good intentions and your willingness to get involved. The point that I would like to get across is that PETA and other animal rights groups are NOT our friends and they are not a good way to go, even though on the surface, it MAY seem that way.


ascott said:
I learned along time ago--there are some rules and laws made just to be overthrown...always.

On this, I think we all agree. :D

I am not opposed to breaking any law if it means I am doing the right thing. I learned as a young teenager that "right and wrong" has very little to do with "legal and illegal" in our current society. This was a big distinction for my young mind at the time...
 

CactusVinnie

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Terryo,

We are all aware, as already said, that such organisations are powered in a minuscule proportion by love for animals!! I obviously agree some of the PETA objectives (!), but I am still a grown-up and see the other side, and those "idiotic approaches"are unacceptable for me.
I wasn't aware that you will resent my words personally, and I certainly wasn't referring to you!!
After all, I am sure your views are not entirely PETA-like, and you have your own, more sincere and logical approach about them and the animals, generally!

If I think my approach may be better, is that I look at a whole picture and I am certainly not interested in anything else than animals, not money, not publicity. I will read again the thread, and try to point out some aspects, put them together and explaining myself better.
 

StudentoftheReptile

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TerryO, I wasn't referring to you either, and I do not believe I said anything you did was idiotic.

Like you, Tom and Angela pointed out, there definitely a distinction between right and wrong and legal and illegal. I understand that perfectly.

However, my point was that I don't think ANY of us particularly like being in that awkward position of choosing between what is right and "abiding" by the letter of the law. In some cases, the choice is harder than in others...which is why I prefer all of us could just be allowed to keep what we want. Technically, it's a felony to touch a gopher tortoise around here, so what am I supposed to do when I see one crossing the road and a cop happens to be behind me? I know what is right, but do I risk getting a steep fine, which I probably don't have the extra money lying around to pay it?
 

terryo

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Absolutely, no offence taken from either of you. I raised 5 sons and have a much tougher skin than that. LOL By the way I am totally against this ban, and no matter what happens, I intend to keep my animals. As for PETA, I was only in the Primate end of things, and certain things happened that I was not pleased with, so I'm no longer involved with them. I will still maintain that they do more good than bad, which is my HO, and we must keep in mind that each branch is managed by very different people, and most do things on their own, without approval from anyone. (believe me I know) Years ago things were so much different with them until greed took over.
 

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PETA is a cellular terrorist organization. That is how the FBI defines and treats them and their members. I attended an in-house seminar about many such groups, their methods and tactics, and the resulting harm they do. A significant suit of legislation was enacted to protect animals prior to PETA being on the scene in the US. Since PETA, a significant suit of counter terrorist activities have been used to fight them by organizations, government, private and public institutions.

By being cellular there is no central authority or plan of action. They are not a cohesive group with an ideal or focused ideology. They are, defined legally, and by their actions a, terrorist group.

It is that simple. So, yes Pamela Anderson et al. endorse terrorism in the US.

The FBI really does take them seriously.

Will
 

terryo

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"A significant suit of legislation was enacted to protect animals prior to PETA being on the scene in the US. "
You must be joking.......

I wouldn't even dignify this post with an answer, but..... As far as the law goes. A paid political agenda...nothing more. EVERYHING is about money and politics. I live in NY and to me terrorism was 9/11, not animal activists.
There's a lot more I could say, but I don't want to incriminate myself.
But...I certainly respect your opinion.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I'm not joking in any way shape or form.

http://awic.nal.usda.gov/government-and-professional-resources/federal-laws/animal-welfare-act -> established 1966

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals -> founded in 1980

I am asserting that the FBI considers PETA a domestic terrorist organization. This is not my opinion, it is fact.

You did indeed 'dignify' my post with an answer, and indeed PETA does use politics and 'guilt of station in life' to wheedle money and effort out of people. As a 501c3 they are not allowed to lobby or directly engage elected officials to change or enact legislation. They use the politics of popularity and guilt. Amendments to the AWA with PETA's hand involved, have been lawsuits perturbed by PETA breaking laws and disrupting legal business in the US. That statement encompasses why PETA is a domestic terrorist organization. They don't simply protest or engage in debate they interfere with legal activities, and disrupt individuals and businesses going about their private and public business. These are all facts.

PETA is an annoyance that has cost business and private people more than they have gained through donations. Regulators who enforce the AWA and the suit of many other laws and statutes that serve to maintain actual ethical treatment of animals, such as the USDA, the FDA, NIH, and Kosher law Rabi's, and Halal law meat processing are far more effective and carry much more sway and direct influence in the day to day way that animals are incorporated in everyone's life - that it makes characterizing PETA as a social cancer a fair point of view. That is my opinion, that is what you are respecting.

Will
 

terryo

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I do respect your opinion. I was active in the PETA many years ago until greed took over, and a few things happened that I couldn't respect them for. As with all laws, I've never seen any indication of any good being done, and most are always broken, especially where animals are concerned. We could go on and on, about PETA, but it's been done many times on the forum, and neither of us would change our opinions. I wouldn't change a thing I've done in the past with my involvement with them....not a thing, and I give no credence to anything that the Government or the FBI says about them. I hope I haven't offended you with my thoughts, because I certainly never meant to.
 

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Will,

Certainly PETA is not an angelic organisation- only some of their members are sincere... but to call them terrorists, is quite a lot of error.
You said "not your opinion, but FACT"- because FBI considers them that way? Well, I would rather care about YOUR labelling, than the FBI one. The disrupted legal bussiness you talk about are also quite unscrupulous too, and since they are lucrative, they can weigh a lot when declaring animal right organisations and other funny stuff as "terrorist". As Terry said, "EVERYHING is about money and politics"! So I won't buy crap from the officials, while I can very well use my own mind to read the reality- and that way I can easily see how they use fear to controll us.

"The FBI really does take them seriously."
No doubt, the tax-paying citizens should know that someone is fighting a hard fight for their safety :p, and the threats are not jokes, so naturally they take them "seriously". Such level of safety make me consider moving to the US, LOL!!!

I have someone very close to me, working in some "services". Wow, I was not aware of the brainwashing there... lots of mystery and secrets, that we, civilians better do not find about, since so many threats lurk out there, and panik would do us more harm LOL!!! Seriously, such things, tought in classes in "serious" institutions, make a normal free-thinking man LAUGH!!

to me terrorism was 9/11, not animal activists.
... and not even that, I would call it "pre-justifying innocent massacre"... like our Romanian 1989 "Revolution", when "they" killed thousands to make the "coup d'etat" looking like a Revolution and many still think brainwashed here, despite the evidences... "They" will always use our feelings in order to manipulate us towards their goals... be it US, Europe etc...

There's a lot more I could say, but I don't want to incriminate myself.
Lot more from here too...

So, it seems that we reached another subject: "Humans in captivity"- illusion of freedom for humans... they should not be kept in enclosures with transparent walls, because they can scratch relentlessly trying to get out. Better just apply an idiotic message banner like "Be Free!!" and block the visibility :D. Let them do all the unimportant things, and keep them far from the walls- scratches may appear and some may poke an eye through them, to the real world...
 

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If I happen to be employed at a facility that does testing on animals, or perhaps even a slaughter house, I certainly wouldn't mind knowing what the FBI considers terrorists. ;)

Maybe not PETA directly, but the ALF has directly attacked such facilities...places where animals are kept humanely, people with families just doing their jobs, etc....and the building is set on fire. I call that terrorism. I'm not trying to downplay 9/11 or anything, but the main definition of a terrorist is literally: someone who seeks to strike terror in others.
 

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PETA is an absolute joke. There are members, and then there is everyone else that sees them for the ridiculous joke that they really are.

Honestly, to me, HSUS is a much bigger concern, because they have actual influence.
 

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StudentoftheReptile said:
(snip)
Technically, it's a felony to touch a gopher tortoise around here, so what am I supposed to do when I see one crossing the road and a cop happens to be behind me? I know what is right, but do I risk getting a steep fine, which I probably don't have the extra money lying around to pay it?

Just as a thought exercise- absolutely NOT meant as a moral statement-

Stop and protect the tortoise with your car (depending on where in the street it is and traffic)? Stop and ask the cop to help protect the tortoise?
 

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Madkins007 said:
Just as a thought exercise- absolutely NOT meant as a moral statement-

Stop and protect the tortoise with your car (depending on where in the street it is and traffic)? Stop and ask the cop to help protect the tortoise?

My guess is the cop isn't going to waste his/her time writing you a ticket for helping a turtle cross the road. If YOU or your car are affecting the flow of traffic though...then you will most likely be ticketed.
 

ascott

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"Humans in captivity"- illusion of freedom for humans... they should not be kept in enclosures with transparent walls, because they can scratch relentlessly trying to get out. Better just apply an idiotic message banner like "Be Free!!" and block the visibility . Let them do all the unimportant things, and keep them far from the walls- scratches may appear and some may poke an eye through them, to the real world...

Perfectly expressed Fabian...
 

terryo

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ascott said:
"Humans in captivity"- illusion of freedom for humans... they should not be kept in enclosures with transparent walls, because they can scratch relentlessly trying to get out. Better just apply an idiotic message banner like "Be Free!!" and block the visibility . Let them do all the unimportant things, and keep them far from the walls- scratches may appear and some may poke an eye through them, to the real world...

Perfectly expressed Fabian...

Love it!
 

Terry Allan Hall

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StudentoftheReptile said:
However, my point was that I don't think ANY of us particularly like being in that awkward position of choosing between what is right and "abiding" by the letter of the law. In some cases, the choice is harder than in others...which is why I prefer all of us could just be allowed to keep what we want. Technically, it's a felony to touch a gopher tortoise around here, so what am I supposed to do when I see one crossing the road and a cop happens to be behind me? I know what is right, but do I risk getting a steep fine, which I probably don't have the extra money lying around to pay it?

Actually, I was in just such a scenario, last time I was in Florida...saw a gopher tortoise trying to cross, so I pulled over and got it out of the street and carried it about 100 yards into the green. When I returned, there was a Florida Highway Patrolman at my truck, and he said that he was going the other direction, but saw me stop and rescue the tortoise, and wanted to thank me.

Some Florida cops understand the spirit for the law needn't be the letter of the law. :)

Will said:
I'm not joking in any way shape or form.

http://awic.nal.usda.gov/government-and-professional-resources/federal-laws/animal-welfare-act -> established 1966

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals -> founded in 1980

I am asserting that the FBI considers PETA a domestic terrorist organization. This is not my opinion, it is fact.

You did indeed 'dignify' my post with an answer, and indeed PETA does use politics and 'guilt of station in life' to wheedle money and effort out of people. As a 501c3 they are not allowed to lobby or directly engage elected officials to change or enact legislation. They use the politics of popularity and guilt. Amendments to the AWA with PETA's hand involved, have been lawsuits perturbed by PETA breaking laws and disrupting legal business in the US. That statement encompasses why PETA is a domestic terrorist organization. They don't simply protest or engage in debate they interfere with legal activities, and disrupt individuals and businesses going about their private and public business. These are all facts.

PETA is an annoyance that has cost business and private people more than they have gained through donations. Regulators who enforce the AWA and the suit of many other laws and statutes that serve to maintain actual ethical treatment of animals, such as the USDA, the FDA, NIH, and Kosher law Rabi's, and Halal law meat processing are far more effective and carry much more sway and direct influence in the day to day way that animals are incorporated in everyone's life - that it makes characterizing PETA as a social cancer a fair point of view. That is my opinion, that is what you are respecting.

Will

I will respectfully decline to have a high opinion of the FBI (and most other "alphabet organizations")...while they do some good things, they do just as many bad things.
 

StudentoftheReptile

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Terry Allan Hall said:
Actually, I was in just such a scenario, last time I was in Florida...saw a gopher tortoise trying to cross, so I pulled over and got it out of the street and carried it about 100 yards into the green. When I returned, there was a Florida Highway Patrolman at my truck, and he said that he was going the other direction, but saw me stop and rescue the tortoise, and wanted to thank me.

Some Florida cops understand the spirit for the law needn't be the letter of the law. :)

Ironically, friends of mine have been the same situation and were threatened with a ticket/fine by officers. That's actually why I used that scenario.
 

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My experiences are more in line with Terry Allan Hall's. My entire family, save for my father, will make efforts to stop and assist when a gopher tortoise is trying to cross a road. I used to do the same every time I saw one when I lived in FL. I have had police officers thank me for moving the especially large ones and I have had them ignore me when dealing with hatchlings and juveniles. I never received any warnings or threats, not that such would deter me. Each of us (my mother, brother, and myself) has saved dozens along with various other animals.
 
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