So they CAN NOT dissect the dead tortoise for the visual and tissue analysis?
Tortoise died
- Thread starter Anyfoot
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I've tried all that, I out and out starved them for weeks a while back, they just went dormant.
This is my main quandary. We're the slugs wild collected? I would for sure get a toxicology and histipath on the liver and internal organs if possible, that's quite a rapid decline to expire so quickly. I'd speculate the slug had something to do with it.
I don't ever starve my picky eaters, as this becomes just power struggle and I hate it. Same thing with my kids. They are horrible eaters! All 3 of them!!! So I'm used to dealing with this crap. I make sure there is a bit of what they love mixed into their food and a bit of it on top just to get them to start eating. Sometimes they'll devour, sometimes they eat less, but I have stopped losing sleep over it. My job is to put good nutricious food in front of everybody and their job is to eat it. They can't do my job for me, nor can I do theirs for them, so I have decided to just do my job to the best of my ability and let go of trying to control theirs
No. Or maybe nobody wants too.
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People: Autopsy is when the investigator is looking at the pathology of a dead animal that is the same species. Necropsy is when the investigator is looking at the pathology of a different species. The procedures are the same. The different words refer to who is doing the investigation relative to what animal is being looked at. So, if one tortoise tried to determine the death of another tortoise of the same species (crazy) that would be an autopsy. If a tortoise did the same procedure on another species of tortoise or a person, that would be a necrospy. They are situational terms.
Any vet worth the paper their degree is printed on should be able to do a gross examination, that is - open the animal and survey all the anatomy for aberrant appearance. Simple things like are their large parasites in the lungs and intestine. Do the tissue colors appear normal, is the liver to large to small (can be done by weight and use a look up table even if the vet does not have specific knowledge). Is there an intestinal blockage etc. If a vet can't do that, I would ask how many boxes of cracker jacks did it take to get your degree.
A better vet would take tissue samples and fix them in a few different fixatives, then post them to an actual pathologist along with the result of the gross examination and images taken during the gross examination.
The really complicated stuff is done with those tissue samples, which may or may not degrade despite appropriate post death treatment are looked at for the result of a disease, most likely not the direct observation of the disease organism. That would be an interpretative determination and based on the pathologist doing the observing could be really good, very near as solid as observing the actual potential disease organism. Oddly even if a disease organism is directly observed that does not conclusively suggest a cause of death.
Any vet worth the paper their degree is printed on should be able to do a gross examination, that is - open the animal and survey all the anatomy for aberrant appearance. Simple things like are their large parasites in the lungs and intestine. Do the tissue colors appear normal, is the liver to large to small (can be done by weight and use a look up table even if the vet does not have specific knowledge). Is there an intestinal blockage etc. If a vet can't do that, I would ask how many boxes of cracker jacks did it take to get your degree.
A better vet would take tissue samples and fix them in a few different fixatives, then post them to an actual pathologist along with the result of the gross examination and images taken during the gross examination.
The really complicated stuff is done with those tissue samples, which may or may not degrade despite appropriate post death treatment are looked at for the result of a disease, most likely not the direct observation of the disease organism. That would be an interpretative determination and based on the pathologist doing the observing could be really good, very near as solid as observing the actual potential disease organism. Oddly even if a disease organism is directly observed that does not conclusively suggest a cause of death.
Wild caught from my garden. This is how I've fed them since Ive had them. Both my next door neighbor's do not use any sort of pestercides either. If the slugs were the culprit I would have had more than one with a problem I would have thought.
Is it possible a slug could have got stuck starving her of oxygen.
The so called qualified vet I spoke to referred to it as a 'post mortem'. Is this just an autopsy/necropsy.
I'll phone a few different vets up tomorrow.
How long would it take for rigor mortis to set in? Hours/days/weeks.
But didn't you say she wasn't acting her norm for past few days? And all that gas?.... I.... just don't know! Doubt it was the choking. I thing that something had been wrong within her gut and her behavior of past few days was reflecting her not feeling well. Then that gas, diarrhea stool, violent body movememt were at the pinnacle of the whole process. Whether it was pain, or pain&nausea&stomach trying to purge itself... I don't know... I may still be too stuck in human medicine. I wish I could help you more. If you have a reason to suspect that her disease process may have had something to do with her diet, focus on modifications in that department for other torts. And don't feel bad! You have been doing a very fine job for your torts. Sometimes s**** just happens! It had nothing to do with you. And NO! I don't thing it was that slug. But do not bury her just yet
@Will explained it very well. Simply put: autopsy=human doing post mortem on human, or autopsy could also be tort doing post mortem on tort (the same species concept) necropsy=human dissecting another species post mortem. Am I saying it right, Will? I also think that any vet would dissect and at least do a visual, GI follow-through if they felt it was worth it. So if you can fork out some substantial cash for "possibility of finding the cause without guarantees" I'm sure there is someone willing to take that on. How about like a vet medicine school? That would be a great lab session for them
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Decomposition begins immediately. So fast, it is not even seconds. The example I have is this.
While at the Philly Zoo we had problems with Bearded Dragons eating fireflies. One died in my hand while we were using a dopler heart monitor, so the exact moment of death was right then and there. Within a minute (a 60 second minute) the vet had opened the lizard up. Already it was becoming a slurry of stuff and differentiating organs was difficult.
The vet explained it like this. There is a tension of fluids that keeps the animal in living homeostasis, once the animal passes it immediately starts to go to mush. All that being said. I have seen and helped with particularly informative necropsies done days later when the body had been stored in a frig.
Yeah post-mortem is the term.
@Will this lifted my spirit a bit amongst your good info as usual.
If a vet can't do that, I would ask how many boxes of cracker jacks did it take to get your degree.
@Pearly. I still don't think the diet is wrong. My 10 hatchlings won't eat greens either. Not weeds/lettuce or rocket. They haven't been spoilt(so to speak) with protein at this age. They didn't know any different when I stuck dandilion/clover/plantain/lettuce or sow thistle in from 1 day old. They just ignored it, well actually they hid under it.
If a vet can't do that, I would ask how many boxes of cracker jacks did it take to get your degree.
@Pearly. I still don't think the diet is wrong. My 10 hatchlings won't eat greens either. Not weeds/lettuce or rocket. They haven't been spoilt(so to speak) with protein at this age. They didn't know any different when I stuck dandilion/clover/plantain/lettuce or sow thistle in from 1 day old. They just ignored it, well actually they hid under it.
I'm sorry to hear your tortoise died, she was beautiful.
Oh no! So sad!
I'm sorry to hear that your tortoise died. I would definitely try to get a necropsy done. This might sound stupid but maybe take one of the slugs in also. I had a tortoise die and I did not take it in for necropsy, I have regretted it ever since. It would have been worth the money for possibly knowing for sure what happened.
Hey Craig, I know you'd probably be jumping for joy and posting to share with us if there were any pleasant surprises, but my optimistic nature tells me to always HOPE so I'll ask anyway: are there any changes you can report? Nice ones?...
Pearls. I'm 99.9% sure she is gone, there is a very small amount of fluid coming from the nostrils and neck is getting stiff.
One of my males is pacing in and out of her watering bath like a mad man,looks to be sniffing the water, it's wierd. So maybe more to come. Sounds mad and nobody will probably agree, but it looks as if he's looking for her. Either way he's not settled at all.
Thinking back I've only ever seen this male with her, never the other male.
Maybe stress levels are getting high. I now have 2 males and 3 females. The ratio is wrong now.
Testing times ahead I feel.
I'll get them all outside later in an area of the garden they are not familiar with, just incase there is some reajusting in the pecking order going on. Put them all on an even keel.
The mad man male is eating, so that's a good sign I hope.
So sorry... Yes, your gut is probably right. That's why I had asked earlier if any liquid was coming out of her body orifices. Decomposing microbes iliquify some soft tissue and build up gas inside the body. The pressure of that gas build up starts pushing that liquid out after a while. If that's what's going on you should soon start smelling it. If you think you maybe able to find sombody to examine post mortem she'll need to be kept really cool (not frozen). Despite decomposition in progress there should still be enough tissue integrity there for the examiner to determine some obvious causes of her demise. I'm so sorry Craig. And keep an eye on that male. Try to comfort him with good food and things he likes. Also watch him for any signs/symptoms similar to the ones you have just observerved in your female. Just in case
