The dreaded fruit fight!

[saginawhxc]

Hey TFO! I haven't been as active as I would like around here lately, but instead I have been spending countless hours out in the craziness that is the Facebook groups advocating for what basically boils down to TFO care practices. It's sometimes frustrating, but also rewarding to know that I'm truly helping people.

I also secretly send a lot of people this way.

Anyways my question for today is about fruit. I don't think there is one single subject that frustrates me more. There is ALWAYS one person that derails the conversation with something along this line: "I have been feeding fruits for over a decade and they are just fine", and no matter how much logic I throw at this debate it never seems to quell the fire of people that just insist that I'm being paranoid.

So I obviously realize that fruits shouldn't be fed, and argue that point nearly every single day, but what I'm looking for is some sort of study, paper, or other authoritative source that I can cite. I can list the reasons why all day long, but don't have hard evidence to back up my claims. I've googled it, but couldn't come up with anything.

If what I'm looking for exists I would appreciate a nudge in the right direction.

Thank you in advance.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

A separation needs to be made between fruit eating and non fruit eating tortoises. (Redfoot, Yellowfoot)
I have learned on this forum that feeding fruit to non fruit eating tortoises can cause health issues. But I've never seen the facts.
maybe @Tom ?
You need a page or a scientific article that you can post to show that you aren't taking this idea out of thin air.

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't have time to read this whole article, but in skimming I don't see where they say WHY to not feed fruit, just to not feed:

https://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/webdiet.htm

 

[Yvonne G]

This article vaguely refers to what happens when a tortoise is fed too much of the foods he should be fed in limited amounts:

http://www.anapsid.org/tortdiet.html

 

[Yvonne G]

This article says fruit can lead to parasite blooms:

http://www.russiantortoise.net/russiantortoisediet.htm

 

[saginawhxc]

A separation needs to be made between fruit eating and non fruit eating tortoises. (Redfoot, Yellowfoot)
I have learned on this forum that feeding fruit to non fruit eating tortoises can cause health issues. But I've never seen the facts.
maybe @Tom ?
You need a page or a scientific article that you can post to show that you aren't taking this idea out of thin air.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that has been around a bit and never actually seen this. I suspected it was purely because I tend to gloss over at the science of diet.

But yeah, basically I feel like I should have a better defense than "Some people on the internet told me so." Especially when the support for their side of the debate basically boils down to the same thing.

 

[saginawhxc]

A separation needs to be made between fruit eating and non fruit eating tortoises.

Oh and it was probably obvious, but I'll clarify anyways. This is in direct relation to a sulcata. Though I didn't mention sulcatas directly I did post this on this sub for a reason.

I think not differentiating species while discussing care and diet is half the problem. There are some phenomenal sources of tortoise related information that don't do enough to differentiate between care and diet of species.

 

[saginawhxc]

Yvonne, thank you for the links.

1. Is probably one of the better discussions on diet outside of TFO. They make it clear that what is good for one species is not necessarily healthy for others. They still don't themselves cite any sources as to backing up their claims though. It is one thing to say it's obvious that a grassland tortoise should be eating grass, but what I'm specifically looking to find is something that sets out to prove why a sulcata shouldn't be fed fruit.

2. Is more problematic for me than helpful. I don't really think there are that many people still advocating that a sulcata should get 15% vegetables. I think it's the persistence of old information like this still hanging around the internet that furthers confusion.

3. Though it relates to Russians, it is a great article and the only one of the bunch I've never seen. Though it isn't necessarily about sulcatas I think the information about negative effects is still relevant. It still lacks evidence though.

 

[Tom]

Like most things tortoise related, there is not a financial incentive for someone to fund studies such as this. I don't have a citation for you.

What we are left with is anecdotal stories, comparisons to other non-tortoise species, vets sharing first hand experience, nutritionists chiming in, etc…

I eat ice cream almost every day. Because I'm not dead, doesn't mean its good for me. I know a guy who feeds a ton of bananas, skin and all, to his sulcata herd every year. They make lots of babies for him (Which he promptly kills with the dry routine…), but his adults seem healthy on the outside. I think over time, if the fruit is added slowly, the gut flora and fauna will adapt and be able to deal with it. Still, I don't think fruit is "good" for them and it is pretty obvious that there are better things to feed. Fruit is low in fiber and usually has low calcium and low calcium to phosphorous ratios.

I phrase it this way: If fruit is so bad that you can only feed a small amount, once in a while, why feed it at all? If grass, weeds, opuntia and leaves are all good for them, why not feed more of those items and skip the fruit all together.

Similarly, a tortoise is not going to drop dead the second it touches the floor of someone's house or apartment, but we've al seen what is likely to eventually happen. It don't mean free-roaming the house is "good" for a tortoise just because nothing bad has happened yet.

@Will is very helpful with scientific citations.

 

[saginawhxc]

This is pretty much what I figured.

I usually make an analogy with cigarettes. One isn't going to kill you, and it may take years for the damage to be visually verifiable, but every single pack is doing harm whether you can see the results or not.

I would still love to see something solid though. Maybe Will will come up with something.

Thank you Tom and Yvonne.

 

[Mattt0192]

I phrase it this way: If fruit is so bad that you can only feed a small amount, once in a while, why feed it at all? If grass, weeds, opuntia and leaves are all good for them, why not feed more of those items and skip the fruit all together.

I think it has a lot to do with people wanting to give treats to people and animals that they care about. "That poor thing has to eat yucky grass all the time, I bet a strawberry would cheer him up" Every other pet has a treat section at the store so people just see it as a way to treat them. It's sort of similar to Grandma baking cookies for the Grandkids, she does it out of love even though they aren't good for you.

 

[Tom]

I think it has a lot to do with people wanting to give treats to people and animals that they care about. "That poor thing has to eat yucky grass all the time, I bet a strawberry would cheer him up" Every other pet has a treat section at the store so people just see it as a way to treat them. It's sort of similar to Grandma baking cookies for the Grandkids, she does it out of love even though they aren't good for you.

You make a very good point here that I hadn't thought of. Our whole society is treat oriented. My daughter asks me every night at dinner: "Daddy? Did I eat enough dinner to get desert?"

 

[Jodie]

It's sort of similar to Grandma baking cookies for the Grandkids, she does it out of love even though they aren't good for you.[/QUOTE]
Grandma's cookies are good for the soul!
I agree with you though. I don't think tortoises need treats. I can give a hibiscus or grape leaf, and they are just as happy as with a strawberry.

 

[Alexio]

Hey TFO! I haven't been as active as I would like around here lately, but instead I have been spending countless hours out in the craziness that is the Facebook groups advocating for what basically boils down to TFO care practices. It's sometimes frustrating, but also rewarding to know that I'm truly helping people.

I also secretly send a lot of people this way.

Anyways my question for today is about fruit. I don't think there is one single subject that frustrates me more. There is ALWAYS one person that derails the conversation with something along this line: "I have been feeding fruits for over a decade and they are just fine", and no matter how much logic I throw at this debate it never seems to quell the fire of people that just insist that I'm being paranoid.

So I obviously realize that fruits shouldn't be fed, and argue that point nearly every single day, but what I'm looking for is some sort of study, paper, or other authoritative source that I can cite. I can list the reasons why all day long, but don't have hard evidence to back up my claims. I've googled it, but couldn't come up with anything.

If what I'm looking for exists I would appreciate a nudge in the right direction.

Thank you in advance.

I think tom was off to a good point about eating ice cream every day not killing you bit not being great for you either. I would extend this to if you took two human one who eats a balanced diet and one who only eats junk food, i would expect the long term effects to be significant in both appearance physically and internally. Things like high cholesterol and high blood sugar are just two problems humans face due to a poor diet. I would bet that if someone raised two sulcatas and fed one all grass and fed one all fruit after years if there was blood work done the results would be quite different.
Aside from general diet the main problem i see with feeding fruit at a young age is the tortoise can get spoiled. (because wouldn't we all have chips or cookies for dinner instead of broiled chicken and green beans?)
My other fear is that it might be harder to get the tortoise eating correct foods after eating fruits which no doubt taste better due to the higher sugar content. So if your giving a baby a lot of fruit mixed in with the food and hes just picking though and eating the fruit it will be harder to get him to eat "correct" food over time.
There have been countless people on the forum who inherit a tortoise from someone who was only feeding it cat food, fruit, or veggies, and the people had a very hard tine switching their tortoise back over to the proper diet. Just like if you let a 3 or 4 year old child eat twinkies and ice cream for a few weeks for dinner then one day replace it with a large pile of kale.

 

[saginawhxc]

It's sort of similar to Grandma baking cookies for the Grandkids, she does it out of love even though they aren't good for you.

Cookies aren't good for you?

Blasphemy.

If this forum is going to continue to spread such nonsense I'm going to leave.

 

[robopetz]

Hey TFO! I haven't been as active as I would like around here lately, but instead I have been spending countless hours out in the craziness that is the Facebook groups advocating for what basically boils down to TFO care practices. It's sometimes frustrating, but also rewarding to know that I'm truly helping people.

I also secretly send a lot of people this way.

Anyways my question for today is about fruit. I don't think there is one single subject that frustrates me more. There is ALWAYS one person that derails the conversation with something along this line: "I have been feeding fruits for over a decade and they are just fine", and no matter how much logic I throw at this debate it never seems to quell the fire of people that just insist that I'm being paranoid.

So I obviously realize that fruits shouldn't be fed, and argue that point nearly every single day, but what I'm looking for is some sort of study, paper, or other authoritative source that I can cite. I can list the reasons why all day long, but don't have hard evidence to back up my claims. I've googled it, but couldn't come up with anything.

If what I'm looking for exists I would appreciate a nudge in the right direction.

Thank you in advance.

Sorry I have no input as I'm still learning myself. But, I do have the same feeling when it comes to housing different species together. Everyone says it's a big no no yet there is so many that do it anyway with no issues. So with me doing my homework, there is not much legit information with credible resources that I have yet to find.

 

[Tom]

Everyone says it's a big no no yet there is so many that do it anyway with no issues.

Well there is your problem. You think people aren't having issues. When things go wrong, most people don't post it on a public forum and talk all about it. But if you talk to vets who specialize in reptiles, you'll hear all about cases where whole collections died because one species transmitted some weird tortoise disease to another. Everyone thinks its fine until the day comes that they have a problem and realize its not fine.

I can't tell you how many PMs I answer, usually from Asian countries where it is customary to mix species, where they are explaining all sorts of disease related problems. They tell me all about the ones that have already died, and I do my best to rule out the multiple possibilities for why they are having this problem. Often, disease is the only possibility we can't rule out.

 

[Jennifer M]

Interesting thread. I learned a lot reading through it.

 

[saginawhxc]

Sorry I have no input as I'm still learning myself. But, I do have the same feeling when it comes to housing different species together. Everyone says it's a big no no yet there is so many that do it anyway with no issues. So with me doing my homework, there is not much legit information with credible resources that I have yet to find.

For what it's worth, the people on this forum will not steer you wrong. In my opinion this is by far the best source on tortoise related info.

 

[CharlieM]

The struggle is real on most Facebook groups. They are full of show and tell and much less care oriented. This is true on other tortoise species but also most other animal groups as well. I try to direct people on the redfoot group to this forum by copying a link to pertinent threads.