Thank You HermanniChris! (HC)

[seiff]

The elusive care sheet that everyone refers to seems to not be easily found via tapatalk, which is all I use for this and several other forums. That said... I found a link and it completely changed what I am doing and what I plan to do with my Hermanns.

I'm going from a closed vivarium to a table, keeping my pair instead of selling one, and looking for alternate food supplies away from my produce sections... which will be used in moderation.

Just wanted to publicly thank HC and all the fine work he's doing, so thanks!

 

[Tom]

Well the food thing sounds good, but the other two ideas sound like a mistake to me. Good luck. Hope it goes well.

 

[wellington]

Beautiful tort. Why though are you switching to an open top table? What site or caresheet have you read that says that would be best? Just curious. The food thing, we would all stay away from grocery greens if it were possible, unfortunately, sometimes it's not that easy or possible for some. Keep us posted on how this all goes for you.

 

[seiff]

Beautiful tort. Why though are you switching to an open top table? What site or caresheet have you read that says that would be best? Just curious. The food thing, we would all stay away from grocery greens if it were possible, unfortunately, sometimes it's not that easy or possible for some. Keep us posted on how this all goes for you.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/

I've come across the varying humidity issue in previous research, but HC's explanation seals the deal. I'm so used to misting my ackie enclosure that it's second nature at this point.

 

[WithLisa]

Yes, the care sheet is quite good, but I don't agree on the recommended minimum size... 8x4 foot for a trio?!
I would give one adult Hermann at least 5 square meters, even indoors.
For a small group I would recommend an outdoor enclosure of at least 10 square meters per tortoise. They have to have enough space to get out of each other's way.

 

[HermanniChris]

You're welcome.
You're never, ever going to get away from conflicting views and opinions so just do what clearly works for your tortoises. If you see a possible issue on the horizon, then you can always seek advice/comfort through other methods. You can keep a trio for a portion of the year (during cold weather) in that size enclosure (this also depends on size of the tortoises, for most T. h. hermanni this is plenty of room for a few months, for some T. h. boettgeri that derive from locales where they get very large, you would need to go bigger) with usually no problems, however, as I always suggest, having an extra enclosure on hand to separate an aggressor is necessary. Too many people think males are the only issue....that may be with some other species, but with Hermann's it's BOTH sexes. Females can get VERY aggressive. Typically, they will all live in harmony but it's simply responsible keeping to be ready to separate at any time.
As always, they should be kept outside in a very spacious pen under the proper conditions whenever possible. Nothing can replace the great outdoors. Also, the table is an excellent idea (Hermann's in particular are HIGHLY susceptible to skin nodules, bumps and fungus from being too moist and this helps to stop that) BUT, you have to keep a close eye on the humidity, mostly within the substrate. Do not let that dry out. When they are super young and basically freshly hatched, it's sometimes (and I will stick with SOMETIMES) better to do more of a closed enclosure for them just to subject them to constant high humidity. T. hermanni dry out, can get depressed scutes and succumb to dehydration rapidly so this helps to prevent that. However, they do not do well if exposed to this for too long. This is especially apparent with T. hermanni hermanni. The enclosure needs to be aired out quite often. So, we close the lids on the tiny neonate's units at night only and open them in the morning.

Here are 3 examples of tortoises that were started in rubbermaid containers. They began life having the lids closed at night and opened in the morning. They then went to an open table and an outdoor enclosure. They now reside in an open table type unit in winter (where they are now) and go back outside in late spring. They actually have even smoother growth then most of the wild adults we breed.




And let me just add one more time....this is a method I follow because it works for ME and has proven to be nothing less then successful for our tortoises for a very, very long time. If you find it doesn't work, then please, by all means try something else! You're never going to see me point fingers and criticize....unless you do something ridiculous like keeping your tortoises like a red eared slider.

 

[TortsNTurtles]

Beautiful tortoises!!!

 

[Tom]

@HermanniChris you make EXCELLENT points here. I really don't think an open table will work well for someone here in the dry Southwest in an air conditioned or heated house. The air here is SOOOOO dry all year long. Your point about keeping them too wet all the time is well taken. I have a question for you in regards to this: I keep my closed chambers for Testudo species at around 50-70% humidity with a relatively dry surface layer of substrate, but damp underneath. I take babies outside in the warm sun for an hour or two a day in the single digit humidity here and soak them on the way back in. As they get older and gain size, I leave them out longer and longer. In your experience, would this work well for someone in a climate like mine? Is this enough time for them to dry out and prevent any skin issues?

Also, what is the ambient humidity in the room where your baby enclosures are? Is it a large reptile room full of enclosures with damp substrate? I ask because I wonder if this would make a difference in comparison to someone who has a single tortoise in an open table in a home with circulating dry air.

I agree that your care sheet is excellent, and that no two people will ever agree on everything. Your experience and expertise is obvious, and thank you for taking the time to share this with us. You are an amazing asset to the tortoise community.

 

[HermanniChris]

@Tom thanks for the kind words!!

I tend to forget about certain climates sometimes...that's something I need to be more aware of!

I think the way you are doing it really sounds fine. Exposing them to those outside conditions seems like more then enough to prevent skin problems especially if that's your routine with them. The only worry I would have would be if you were raising T. h. hermanni. They seem to be very sensitive to humidity levels more then most other Testudo and 50% would worry me. This also varies between locales which is really interesting.
So, in your case, the closed chamber really seems to be your best bet. The ambient humidity varies in the 3 different rooms I house tortoises in for the winter (1 being the entire basement which has an overall higher humidity level). The room where the newly hatched babies are hovers around 70%. At night, the bins they are in rise to 80% give or take because I put the lids on. The skin issues seem to start in the soft parts or around the face and it can be just one or 2. Then, it can start to rapidly spread if they continue to be too wet. For the yearlings/juveniles who have put on significant size, I still make sure they do not dry out ever, but they can be exposed to say 60-65% humidity for longer intervals. Of course fresh water is always available and the tortoises do drink. I think (and have been meaning to add this to the care sheets) that multiple water dishes may actually be more beneficial to neonates then just one. They tend to "stay put" for long periods of time, only venturing out for short terms and having various choices for them can help to prevent dehydration even further. Depending on enclosure size, if it's too large and the water dish is on the far end from where they burrow down frequently, this can cause them to fall victim quickly if they are not making it over to the dish enough. I've also been meaning to get into using humidifiers. Anyone use them in their tortoise rooms?

 

[Tom]

@HermanniChris

We are on the same page for so many things... I have been a fan of multiple water saucers for a long time now. This is a feature in all of my hatchling enclosures. It can be a pain to have to clean double the water dishes, but seeing the substrate tracked into the bowls reassures me that they know where the water is and are using the bowls, even when I'm not looking.

In an open table with dry substrate, like wood chips or rabbit pellets, humidity in my house would be in the teens on a good day. It might get into the 20s if it was raining outside and the heater wasn't running too much. Its that bad. This is why I react when I see someone say they are going to use dry substrate in an open table for a baby of any species. Of course it would help if I actually clicked the link and read the care sheet to see who wrote it in those cases... Sorry about that one. I didn't even look to see who the author was. My mistake.

So you find 70% is best for Westerns? That is great info to have for when I finally get some. Its easy to adjust humidity in my chambers, so that will present no problem. I keep it 80%+ for my leopards and sulcatas with no problem, so 70ish% will be easy.

I'm still wrapping my brain around your method with the tubs and the lids at night. That is simply brilliant. Of course this would prevent the use of light timers and someone would have to be there every night and every morning... I gotta try this.

 

[HermanniChris]

@Tom Noooo hard feelings whatsoever!

I do think 70% is overall best for Westerns but I will say, some of the locales are super, super sensitive and I'm still playing around with different levels and even temperatures with them. Unfortunately there's nothing to compare with for them here in our country so I'm forced to follow guidelines from people in other countries. That's when I run into issues like you have. You're incredibly dry, so you have to modify things to make it work. Same here when compared to other parts of the world like the Balearic Islands for example.

I honestly think that you'd do well with some of these locales if you do exactly what you're doing for the Leopards and Sulcatas. It just seems to be working great and I can't see how a locale like Sicily (for example) wouldn't handle that well. I'm thinking that with NJ's higher humidity level in combination with a closed chamber, that may be why the skin issues can break out....

 

[Tom]

I honestly think that you'd do well with some of these locales if you do exactly what you're doing for the Leopards and Sulcatas. It just seems to be working great and I can't see how a locale like Sicily (for example) wouldn't handle that well.

Well I can see how this is going to have to go...

You are just going to have to send me 6-10 unrelated Sicilian hatchlings this summer and we'll have to see how they fare. This will set up your West Coast assurance colony, in case some major disaster happens on the East coast. :D

 

[HermanniChris]

I definitely like the sound of that!!

 

[seiff]

You both rule! I feel like I know and understand a lot more now from both of you... and like everyone else I'm going to apply what I learn to my situation. I still have a lot of reading to catch up on, but again a big thanks to both HC and Tom!

 

[Iochroma]

Thanks Chris!
(really beautiful animals too!)
Thanks to Tom too - discussions between experienced keepers like you guys are very educational.

P.S. What are the three species above? All Western? Three locales?

 

[Heather H]

Ok so this is western. What about eastern and Dalmatian? Are they kept the same way. Is this the basics: lower humidity in day higher humidity at night? Ideal temps for each ? Ideal humidity day night?
@HermanniChris @Tom

 

[HermanniChris]

@Heather H, the photos I posted are of westerns just for comparison to show smooth growth. Yes you're right with those questions. Temps are all relatively the same with all 3 subspecies. Westerns however, are more sensitive overall and tend to dehydrate quicker.