Tail wagging?

[mgreen]

My wife wants to know....

Bubbles seems to be wagging her tail alot and wants to know if it has anything to do with emotion!

....let the commentary begin!

 

[Isa]

When Hermy wags his tail it is because he will urinates or poo .

 

[Rhyno47]

All my torts do it when they're about to poop.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Emotion?.......... is a 'human' thing isn't it?

The sooner we learn that we should keep emotions out or redfoot raising.. the better it will be for them!

Tail-wagging is a redfoot thing. What happens during or afterwards?

NERD

 

[Isa]

I do not want hijack this thread but Hermy is a tortoise and I am sure emotion is a tortoise thing too

 

[terryo]

This has nothing to do with tail wagging, but they do show fear, and curiosity. I can never tell if Pio's happy or sad, but if he's nervous....(for instance, if I put him in a new environment)....he will show anxiety, by swallowing (it looks like that's what he's doing) every second and bobbing his head. They show aggression also. If these are considered emotions, how are we to know when they are showing sadness, love or happiness?

 

[Kymiie]

Crush:
''WAGS'' his tail for a poopie or wee wee

xx

 

[Neohippy]

Emotion?.......... is a 'human' thing isn't it?

The sooner we learn that we should keep emotions out or redfoot raising.. the better it will be for them!

I disagree. That seems to be a very cold and ignorant thing to say. Emotion is the very reason many people have these wonderful critters, and the reason why we try to do the best we can for them.
Don't be crusty, let your inner kid out and loosen the stick a little manno.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Emotion?.......... is a 'human' thing isn't it?

The sooner we learn that we should keep emotions out or redfoot raising.. the better it will be for them!

I disagree. That seems to be a very cold and ignorant thing to say. Emotion is the very reason many people have these wonderful critters, and the reason why we try to do the best we can for them.
Don't be crusty, let your inner kid out and loosen the stick a little manno.

Of course Neo.. that's what your sig. says!

That's your opinion...... the best in most cases is over-kill. And don't ask me to explain.

NERD

 

[Madkins007]

Let's see... I've seen my guys wag their tails because...
- Poop, pee, or preparing to
- The girl and young'uns (short tails) often wag as they are 'high-walking' (legs straight, shell high, going purposefully somewhere, often pretty quickly)
- Occasionally seen when the short tails are heading to food
- When one is trailing another in the outdoor habitat ('following behavior')
- Seen in the males as part of fanning

Because I see it often enough in high-walking, following behaviors, and going to food (but not often while eating), I would be willing to accept that it might signal some sort of emotion- pleasure, excitement, etc. but for all I know it may also just sometimes be a visual signal saying 'follow me, I think I smell food!'

And just FYI- most experts would agree that most vertebral animals feel at least some of the 'base emotions'- fear, pain, hunger, pleasure, etc. Examples of this in reptiles are threat displays, the extensive 'language' of chameleon color displays, evidence of 'nuzzling' and companionship in lizards even outside of mating seasons, fear responses, etc.

It is the 'higher emotions' like love that are more questionable. Of course, part of the problem is the very definition of what counts as an emotion in the first place!

Having said that, we all have seen lots of examples of what can go wrong when a human tries to care for a tortoise or other animal based on emotions. Bad diets because 'it makes them happy' or 'they are getting so bored with greens', stuff dumped in the habitat 'so they will have something to play with', letting tortoises roam around in inappropriate houses so 'they can be a part of the family', etc.

There is another post going on in the forums about a tortoise with a mirror and the keeper thinks the tortoise really likes it... but Betta fish, most birds, anoles, chameleons, etc. are stressed by mirrors- showing threat displays when they look. I have no idea if the tortoise likes it or not (and thus have not posted there), but I would bet that it is at very least confused by it.

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

My girls both wag their tails, and although they don't always poop after doing so, that is the most common event following it.

Now to get a little side tracked...

I know that elephants mourn their dead and even have grave yards that they visit and stroke the bones of their deceased relatives.

Lovebirds make strong bonds with mates or humans that can lead to severe "depression" which commonly has lead to the death of the other mate if one dies or is taken away. I used to have a peach faced lovebird when I was younger and had to give it away and the people who I gave it to later told me it seemed depressed and died not long after I gave it up.

I also know that dolphins have sex for fun and pleasure.

Just a few examples of animals displaying more complex emotions.

 

[Bryan]

Animals do feel emotion, anyone that has been around animals long enough will know this. Emotion is not unique to human beings by any means.

---

I'll exclude higher primates for the sake of argument.
Do animals feel emotion? Sure but that needs to be put into perspective. Many people who love animals tend to be anthropomorphic which in turn leads them to believe that their animals are trying to establish some sort of meaningful bond versus learned behaviors.
Lets take fear for example. Many tests have been done and for the most part the majority of animals have been shown not to have a sense of self. Put a mirror in front of them and they don't realize they are looking at themselves like a human being would. They will often show aggression or fear towards this new "intruder" although in actuallity they are simply looking at their own reflection.
A human beings fear is often based around their own mortality. Once again most animals do not have a sense of self and do not have any concept of death. No fear of dying whatsoever simply basic instict to avoid predation.
Happiness/love? Many people see young animals "playing" and assume the animals are experiencing joy when in reality their "playfulness" is teaching them the necessary skills to hunt, kill, find food and simply survive. The same siblings these young animals "played" with just months earlier will often fight and kill one another in an effort to establish their own territories once the mother forces them out of her territory. Doesn't sound especially loving to me.
The mother snapping turtle who will lay her eggs in May or June and then eat her own offspring a few short months later if given the opportunity. The mother has no bond nor interest in her own prodigy and sees them simply as a meal.

I fully expect to receive negative criticism regarding my post but thats ok. I have no problems whatsoever with someone believing their animals love them or are happy to see them. I do have a problem when groups such as HSUS and PETA use these arguments to try and ban the private ownership of animals based on their opinion that animals are self aware and feel a spectrum of emotions as a human would.
We as pet owners need to be very careful and respectful of one another because these groups feed off of division and use these arguments to further their agenda of banning ownership.
United we stand divided we fall.
Thanks for reading my ramblings.

---

A lot of childs play is fun yet educational... I'm sure that playing knight in the middle age or hunter for caveman children was twofold. And I have never owned an elephant or dolphin that is simply what I learned in biology class. My only "tainted" comment was on the lovebird.

---

I believe that all living things have emotions, i can tell when my torts are happy,when they are nervous, and when they are sad,when i seperated henri from mini and miya, miya stopped eating she just drank and slept now henri is back with them she is running around again and eating like a pig again, I dont care what other people think if you talk to something its because you know it has emotions otherwise you wouldnt talk to it or name it like we do with cats, dogs torts lizards etc etc,Although they show emotions in different ways but i think the tail wagging could be when hes about to poo or pee ,just my opinion

---

Isn't it interesting that 'humans' will have the same 'emotional' relationship with their reptiles that they have with their mammals?.. and even use that same "mammal-relationship" as how they justify that. How can we claim that humans and mammals [ and trees ] have the same/like emotions? Aren't humans the only living thing that have the ability to reason.. isn't that what makes humans different???

And let's hear it for those 'scientests' that actually think they can determine/guage that cold-blooded animals have emotions ( they can 'learn' to control? ).

Am I simplifying what Luvthemtorts just said?.. maybe in a way. I maintain that some of the things that humans do to make it 'better' for our torts is really not for their betterment.

Back on topic:
I've seen tail-wagging by all ages of redfoots.. from a few months to several years [ more than 10+ ]. Can't determine any cause or purpose!

Terry K

---

Aren't humans the only living thing that have the ability to reason.. isn't that what makes humans different???
I don't believe this at all. Any animal that can use a tool is reasoning. I had a monkey, and you wouldn't believe what she was capable of. I have seen her open a drawer, take out a fork and use it to open her treat box. Isn't that reasoning? You have taken a picture of your Redforts climbing a fence to get a Rose of Sharon bloom. That has to be some kind of reasoning. I don't know what this has to do with emotions though.
When I took Izzy out of Pio's enclosure, Pio didn't eat for days, and just sat in his hide after he circled the viv for two days. What was that all about? Was he missing Izzy? When I put her back in he smelled her all over, and was fine again.
Emotions are so complex, and I don't think we will ever know what a reptile or mammal is thinking. Half the time we don't know what humans are thinking.

---

Aren't humans the only living thing that have the ability to reason.. isn't that what makes humans different???
I don't believe this at all. Any animal that can use a tool is reasoning. I had a monkey, and you wouldn't believe what she was capable of. I have seen her open a drawer, take out a fork and use it to open her treat box. Isn't that reasoning? You have taken a picture of your Redforts climbing a fence to get a Rose of Sharon bloom. That has to be some kind of reasoning. I don't know what this has to do with emotions though.
When I took Izzy out of Pio's enclosure, Pio didn't eat for days, and just sat in his hide after he circled the viv for two days. What was that all about? Was he missing Izzy? When I put her back in he smelled her all over, and was fine again.
Emotions are so complex, and I don't think we will ever know what a reptile or mammal is thinking. Half the time we don't know what humans are thinking.

This is such a good post! You said everything I wanted to say

---

I have no doubts that animals have problem solving abilities. It has been proven time and time again that the family Octopodidae have excellent abilities to solve problems. Does this mean they can feel happiness, sadness, sense of ones' own mortality? In my mind it simply means the animasl have the ability to adapt to a forced situation out of necessity and survive.
Humans to a degree share this same trait of being confronted with a situation and being able to work through it to achieve our goals. So what makes us different than an animal in that regards? We think! Instead of blindly trying all options until we stumble upon the one that works we often formulate elaborate plans to solve our problems.

As far as tortoises having the ability to miss or grieve their cagemates sudden disappearance I have my doubts. If it is emotion that drives them to seek companionship then why do most of these animals lead solitary lives in a natural environment? In a captive situation it is quite simply forced behavior. Animals being kept together and develop a routine so when one is suddenly plucked from the enclosure something is different. The same results could most likely be achieved by placing the animal in a newly designed enclosure.
When the missing animal is replaced do the now happily rejoined couple caress one another and shed tears of joy at their reunion? Hardly. The animals investigate one another because there is something new in their surroundings or, in the case of the introduced animal, a new environment all together.

The debate is much like religion and sometimes crosses that very boundary when the idea of an animal having a soul enters the picture.
As with that debate, the idea of animals having higher emotions is very difficult to approach and maintain a meaningful discussion. Preconceived notions or ones' desire for their own personal beliefs to be right often cloud the waters and makes it difficult to approach the subject with an open and rational mind.

Once again the above is simply my opinion and not aimed at or meant to offend anyone in particular. (This will be my standard disclaimer throughout this discussion )

 

[Madkins007]

I'm up for starting a thread on Debatable Topics if anyone wants to keep on about emotions.

 

[Madkins007]

I've started an emotions thread in Debatable Topics if anyone is interested so we can get back to tail wagging here.

 

[Candy]

I have always thought that Dale must be using his tail to feel the ground under him as he walks, but that's just me. I thought it might tell him something about the area he is in.

 

[Yvonne G]

I was going to move all the "emotion" posts over to Mark's new "emotions "thread, however I re-read the original post, which says, "...Bubbles seems to be wagging her tail alot and wants to know if it has anything to do with emotion!"

So the emotion question was raised by the OP and I think all the posts referring to emotions are right where they belong!

 

[Madkins007]

I was going to move all the "emotion" posts over to Mark's new "emotions "thread, however I re-read the original post, which says, "...Bubbles seems to be wagging her tail alot and wants to know if it has anything to do with emotion!"

So the emotion question was raised by the OP and I think all the posts referring to emotions are right where they belong!

Quite honestly, this is not a topic I get too excited about but I thought it might be fun to watch the debates if the posts did not have to worry about tying things back to Red-foot tails.



Animal tails are fascinating, though. Almost every vertebral animal with a tail seems to use it more than as a purely functional tool, and most tails seem to have more muscles or control than they really need as well.

Is it a left-over feature from an aquatic heritage of being fish, and the muscles worked the tails? Does it serve some form of subtle communication we are not sure about?

Other than elimination and reproduction processes, when I see my tort's tails, they are usually 'excited'- exploring, going for food, etc. Is that an emotional response? Heck if I know!

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Every tortoise and box turtle I've ever been around wags their tail for various reasons, and ALWAYS at feeding time, so it may be anticipation, it may be delight...it's all good!

 

[franeich]

Is your tort pooing? Sometimes when mine is having a little trouble going it will wag its tail alot

 

[DonaTello's-Mom]

'Anthropomorphism' is the attribution of human characteristics to, or, some would argue, recognition of human characteristics in, non-human creatures and beings......................I'm guilty of this!

My sully is a tail wager too. It's too cute....