Sully substrate help

[TortyMama♡]

Im in my first year w/my two 'sully' torts and despite the LOADS of info I've researched, i am still wondering if there is yet, another way, better than the way I am currently providing substrate for my 'kids'! I have two sulcata tortoises, that'll be 1yr old in August. They're housed indoors, in East Texas. Warmer climate where it rarely freezes and temps can reach triple digits in the summer quite easily. They are housed in a 75gal tank and I've been using a mix of repti-sand, coco bark/husks & Timothy hay. However I am starting to wonder if there is a better alternative. I know that in the beginning I was a bit mislead thinking that they prefer a drier environment, hence, one of the reasons for this post. I tend to their space daily and they get routine soaks and visits in the natural sunlight quite often. If anyone has any advice on a substrate mix, esp one that I can level a new water dish/soaking dish in, I would gladly appreciate it! I am looking to replace that smaller dish w/something more practical. I will attach a couple photos of my babies! They're names are 'Mojo' and 'Mississippi' ♡♡

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Welcome to the forum!

They are housed in a 75gal tank

Are they housed together?

a mix of repti-sand, coco bark/husks & Timothy hay

You are right, none of these three are recommended as the best substrates. Timothy hay can mold easily and tortoises that small don't heat hay yet. Repti-sand can cause blockages, and so can coco husks. The three recommended substrates are soil like coco coir, orchid fir bar and cypress mulch. These can be used on their own, or mixed with coco coir in the bottom and bark or mulch on the top. With orchid bark try to find the fine grade one since it is easier to walk on.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello! Just to check, they aren’t kept together are they?
tortoise of any species should NEVER be housed in pairs under any circumstances, they’re incredibly territorial, behaviours that look cute to us really aren’t, following one another and sleeping huddled up is all bullying the the tortoise world, you’ll eventually see more extreme signs of aggression and one can actually stunt the other. Anyone who tells you pairs are fine, have no idea what they’re talking about. Breeders do this all too often unfortunately.

Small groups are ok when there’s lots of land and the correct male to female ratio.

As mentioned above the substrate choices definitely aren’t the safest or most optimal, so I’m glad you’ve posted!

Hopefully you find this thread helpful, this covers correct equipment(uvb, heating bulbs, lighting etc), correct levels, importance of a closed chamber for younger tortoises(only way to maintain the humidity you need), appropriately maintaining the humidity, safe substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything, and a really handy diet link to check out! If going with a greenhouse, the lower the ceiling height, whilst still allowing for recommended bulb height, the better! But I’ll add some more ideas below for closed chambers, obviously you’ll need two of them

Leopard/sulcata starter

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information below on how I’d personally tackle an indoor starter set up for a leopard/sulcata until they’re bigger. Hopefully it helps give people some ideas!” I know it looks like a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes different closed chamber options, some work better than others, and bear in mind the sizing for growing sulcatas

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

Lastly, this one here is probably most important to go over and keep on hand, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Hope you like them! Please feel free to ask any further questions

 

[Tom]

Im in my first year w/my two 'sully' torts and despite the LOADS of info I've researched, i am still wondering if there is yet, another way, better than the way I am currently providing substrate for my 'kids'! I have two sulcata tortoises, that'll be 1yr old in August. They're housed indoors, in East Texas. Warmer climate where it rarely freezes and temps can reach triple digits in the summer quite easily. They are housed in a 75gal tank and I've been using a mix of repti-sand, coco bark/husks & Timothy hay. However I am starting to wonder if there is a better alternative. I know that in the beginning I was a bit mislead thinking that they prefer a drier environment, hence, one of the reasons for this post. I tend to their space daily and they get routine soaks and visits in the natural sunlight quite often. If anyone has any advice on a substrate mix, esp one that I can level a new water dish/soaking dish in, I would gladly appreciate it! I am looking to replace that smaller dish w/something more practical. I will attach a couple photos of my babies! They're names are 'Mojo' and 'Mississippi' ♡♡

Hello and welcome! You've finally found the correct care info. Most of the info out there is all wrong.

Read through these for an eye-opener. Please feel free to ask any and all questions. We are happy to explain why our info differs from other sources. Our goal is to help you and your tortoises.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[TortyMama♡]

Welcome to the forum!


Are they housed together?


You are right, none of these three are recommended as the best substrates. Timothy hay can mold easily and tortoises that small don't heat hay yet. Repti-sand can cause blockages, and so can coco husks. The three recommended substrates are soil like coco coir, orchid fir bar and cypress mulch. These can be used on their own, or mixed with coco coir in the bottom and bark or mulch on the top. With orchid bark try to find the fine grade one since it is easier to walk on.

Yes they are housed together. There's a photo above of their little home. Everything I've read and researched said that the sand 'alone' isn't recommended, yes, bc if by chance it's used aline and not mixed, it could get stuck to food and possibly eaten, then it can be a hazard. However, I do not feed them carelessly and I watch them as well. They get their food on a small Tupperware dish and it and the eater are cleaned out daily. Also, I have had the same thoughts abt their substrate possibly getting gross but so far I haven't had any issue with that being a thing. Esp bc they're little poos are so small yet easily removed from their area and nothing stays wet in there ling enough to cause any mold that I've found. As for them eating it, one of the Timothy hay mixtures I found has dried vegetables, fruits and greens mixed in with it and surprisingly enough I've actually seen them take bites here and there. Only thing is that one day I had to help one of them get a piece of the husk stuff off his mouth. Lol. I recently put a new drinking/soaking area in using a plastic bottom of a flower pot and I used small rocks to help them easily get in and out. They've had it in there one day and I've already witnessed them going in and out on their own! I've seen some enclosures that seem to be more of a dirt/sand mixture and im wondering how to achieve this. Also curious about that being moldy or too moist. Idk.
And why do you ask if they're together? Please tell me that's ok, for now I hope! Lol! They seem to love one another quite a bit and always stay with each other. Also, I keep noticing where one of them is kind of birrowing a little up in the corner next to a piece of bark and a rock. He/she keeps moving the bedding and I find em way lower into the 'ground' than before. Too early to sex them obviously but is that normal for both males and females?

 

[TortyMama♡]

Welcome to the forum!


Are they housed together?


You are right, none of these three are recommended as the best substrates. Timothy hay can mold easily and tortoises that small don't heat hay yet. Repti-sand can cause blockages, and so can coco husks. The three recommended substrates are soil like coco coir, orchid fir bar and cypress mulch. These can be used on their own, or mixed with coco coir in the bottom and bark or mulch on the top. With orchid bark try to find the fine grade one since it is easier to walk on.

Omg I just read all that care info and it's seriously SUCH good information! I've also heard of allll the insane mythological pet store care instructions and oh man! Thankfully I saved myself and my babies from most of the lies. Lol. Very grateful I found this forum! My torts are about 7mos old, are they still considered 'babies'? I've def noticed growth in both of them! Their little limbs and muscles getting stronger and thicker and their shells also starting to change. Ever so slightly but enough for me to tell as I handle them daily, if not several times a day! Lol! My husband finally, after abt 10yrs of begging, lol, he gave in and got 2 of them from a friend who had a booth at a tattoo convention we were working. They, the wife/husband duo have a reptile business out of southern Louisiana. They're both avid reptile/turtle/tortoise lovers. The wife is also a Herpitology grad and they are pretty reputable breeders. Gave us straight forward info, we saw photos of the mom and dad sullys, at their home that are their personal family members! They sold alot of snakes, lizards etc and happened to have a litter, I guess that's what they're called, lol, of baby sulacatas, there at the show, for sale! I stayed at that booth all weekend and we brought twohone! I've been obsessed ever since. Never thought I'd love another animal as much as I live dogs! Lol! I too have had quite the furry career path in everything furbaby from grooming, kennel tech, veterinary technician and doggy daycare! I have ALWAYS loved dogs and Turtles but never realized how much I adored the latter, until this experience! I've even noticed different personalities in both of them! They know when it's time to eat and meet me in a certain spot of their tank and will follow me to whatever side of the room I'm on when next to their tank and you can tell it's a 'come love on me' type look! Lol! Ugh, they're the best! I'll attach a couple photos I took tonight!heres their little home rn and what the substrate looks like. Combo of Repti-sand, repti-bark, coco something, (I don't remember if its bark/husks or what) and some Timothy hay.

 

[COmtnLady]

Welcome to The Forum!

Here has the best most up-to-date info, plus there are a lot of years of expert tortoise keeping represented by the various members here. Everyone will do their best to help you help your tortoise to have a happy healthy life.
.
For your own peace of mind don't listen to the "advice" given by other sources, like: pet shops, social media sites, YouTube videos, and even most veterinarians. They're still using old info that doesn't work as well as what you'll find here.

Study the info in the links offered. All those head-exploding details will show you how to help your tortoise to thrive.

And, ask a lot of questions.
Hint - Run it by the experts before you buy new equipment or whatever - their expertise will save you a lot of time, stress, and money.

____________________________________


There is a lot of great advice above. Your little guys will do well from it.

Reiterations -
If you have enough humidity to be best for the babies, the hay will go moldy. Remove the Hay. They're too little for it to be useful to them anyway.
Get rid of the sand, it is an impaction hazard.
Get rid of the plastic plants. At some point they tortoise(s) will try to eat them and little sharp pieces of plastic can do a lot of damage to a tortoise's digestive tract.

How do you have the top of their enclosure covered? It needs to be completely closed up.

 

[TortyMama♡]

Welcome to The Forum!

Here has the best most up-to-date info, plus there are a lot of years of expert tortoise keeping represented by the various members here. Everyone will do their best to help you help your tortoise to have a happy healthy life.
.
For your own peace of mind don't listen to the "advice" given by other sources, like: pet shops, social media sites, YouTube videos, and even most veterinarians. They're still using old info that doesn't work as well as what you'll find here.

Study the info in the links offered. All those head-exploding details will show you how to help your tortoise to thrive.

And, ask a lot of questions.
Hint - Run it by the experts before you buy new equipment or whatever - their expertise will save you a lot of time, stress, and money.

____________________________________


There is a lot of great advice above. Your little guys will do well from it.

Reiterations -
If you have enough humidity to be best for the babies, the hay will go moldy. Remove the Hay. They're too little for it to be useful to them anyway.
Get rid of the sand, it is an impaction hazard.
Get rid of the plastic plants. At some point they tortoise(s) will try to eat them and little sharp pieces of plastic can do a lot of damage to a tortoise's digestive tract.

How do you have the top of their enclosure covered? It needs to be completely closed up.

I really appreciate the feedback!! The tank is about 95% covered with a heavy wooden top and the one corner us where their light is attached and the main heat source besides the indoor temp. Rn the low in Texas where we are is around 30-408sh at night and actually gets up to 50-60ish during the day, off and on, during the 'winter'! Def not an actual typical winter climate like other places in the u.s! Lol! So, the humidity thing...how in the world do i achieve and gage that?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Yes they are housed together. There's a photo above of their little home. Everything I've read and researched said that the sand 'alone' isn't recommended, yes, bc if by chance it's used aline and not mixed, it could get stuck to food and possibly eaten, then it can be a hazard. However, I do not feed them carelessly and I watch them as well. They get their food on a small Tupperware dish and it and the eater are cleaned out daily. Also, I have had the same thoughts abt their substrate possibly getting gross but so far I haven't had any issue with that being a thing. Esp bc they're little poos are so small yet easily removed from their area and nothing stays wet in there ling enough to cause any mold that I've found. As for them eating it, one of the Timothy hay mixtures I found has dried vegetables, fruits and greens mixed in with it and surprisingly enough I've actually seen them take bites here and there. Only thing is that one day I had to help one of them get a piece of the husk stuff off his mouth. Lol. I recently put a new drinking/soaking area in using a plastic bottom of a flower pot and I used small rocks to help them easily get in and out. They've had it in there one day and I've already witnessed them going in and out on their own! I've seen some enclosures that seem to be more of a dirt/sand mixture and im wondering how to achieve this. Also curious about that being moldy or too moist. Idk.
And why do you ask if they're together? Please tell me that's ok, for now I hope! Lol! They seem to love one another quite a bit and always stay with each other. Also, I keep noticing where one of them is kind of birrowing a little up in the corner next to a piece of bark and a rock. He/she keeps moving the bedding and I find em way lower into the 'ground' than before. Too early to sex them obviously but is that normal for both males and females?

I wouldn’t risk adding sand into the mix at all personally, it can also become an irritant.

Things should be moist enough in there that theoretically the hay can mould under, if things are too dry to cause that then things are too low humidity wise. You’re safest bet for substrate is damp coco coir and you could put some orchid bark on top.

We ask about them being together because pair dynamics simply do not work for tortoises, the fact they’re following each other and always together isn’t actually a good sign, it’s dominating behaviour, they feel in constant competition to one another, over time one can actually start to become stunted, babies are less aggressive than adults but they will eventually become more aggressive, the stress alone can prove fatal eventually too.

I really appreciate the feedback!! The tank is about 95% covered with a heavy wooden top and the one corner us where their light is attached and the main heat source besides the indoor temp. Rn the low in Texas where we are is around 30-408sh at night and actually gets up to 50-60ish during the day, off and on, during the 'winter'! Def not an actual typical winter climate like other places in the u.s! Lol! So, the humidity thing...how in the world do i achieve and gage that?

You want everything 100% covered including around the lighting, all your humidity will be escaping out of the gap, do you run a ceramic for night? You never want anywhere in the enclosure dropping below 80f, this is very important.
To achieve the appropriate humidity like I say you want everything covered, hopefully you might find some topper options that could work for you in the visual inspiration thread? I’d have some digital monitors to measure the temp and humidity, the lukewarm water pour method is most effective in a closed chamber(all covered in the leopard/sulcata stater thread)

 

[TortyMama♡]

I wouldn’t risk adding sand into the mix at all personally, it can also become an irritant.

Things should be moist enough in there that theoretically the hay can mould under, if things are too dry to cause that then things are too low humidity wise. You’re safest bet for substrate is damp coco coir and you could put some orchid bark on top.

We ask about them being together because pair dynamics simply do not work for tortoises, the fact they’re following each other and always together isn’t actually a good sign, it’s dominating behaviour, they feel in constant competition to one another, over time one can actually start to become stunted, babies are less aggressive than adults but they will eventually become more aggressive, the stress alone can prove fatal eventually too.

You want everything 100% covered including around the lighting, all your humidity will be escaping out of the gap, do you run a ceramic for night? You never want anywhere in the enclosure dropping below 80f, this is very important.
To achieve the appropriate humidity like I say you want everything covered, hopefully you might find some topper options that could work for you in the visual inspiration thread? I’d have some digital monitors to measure the temp and humidity, the lukewarm water pour method is most effective in a closed chamber(all covered in the leopard/sulcata stater thread)

Is this OK? Coco bark? I can't seem to get the coir stuff until it's delivered. Is there another dirt type material that's similar?

 

[COmtnLady]

So, the humidity thing...how in the world do i achieve and gage that?

See below ~

I'm not envisioning exactly what your enclosure-top looks like. Please post a picture of it sitting on the enclosure like it does most of the time.

However, just "guesstimating" - I'd take some foil and crimp it onto the edges of the lights' shades/domes, then use flat foil to connect that to the wood part that IS closed. The whole entire top needs to be sealed, otherwise it just acts like a chimney to suck the heat and humidity out.
Don't worry about ventilation. There will be all sorts of air transfers each day when you put food in, or clean, or take your torts out for their soaks. Ventilation is not even a consideration.



The temperatures in your house or state should have no impact on your babies. You want the hatchlings to be in a completely closed, controlled environment, inside their habitat. As it says in the care sheets you were linked to by Tom and LittleRedFoot, for optimal health and development, heat should be:

...ranging 80-85 ... not dropping lower than 80 at night all over...

and humidity should be:

Humidity for young growing tortoises benefits when maintained around 80%+ 24/7...

Babies are considered babies for the first two or three years of their lives. They need to be of the right SIZE rather than age, however.

Hope this helps.

Happy Tortoise-ing!

 

[COmtnLady]

Is this OK? Coco bark? I can't seem to get the coir stuff until it's delivered. Is there another dirt type material that's similar?

Coco coir has been ground very fine, its more like soil that the hairy bark stuff. Get coir in brick form. The loose stuff is more expensive in the long run, takes up more room on a shelf, and very difficult to get wet enough to use in the enclosure, whereas the bricks get soaked in a bucket of warm water until they completely fall apart and have no hard pieces left in them are easier to store before-hand. One brick is fairly close to one bag f the loose stuff after it's been soaked. Then you hand-wring out the soggy coir and pack it (pack it tightly) in the bottom of your enclosure. Once you have two to four inches of the wet packed coir in place, cover it with another couple inches of dry orchid bark (ReptiBark, fir bark. You can also use cyprus mulch, but I don't care for the smell of cyprus and the pieces are usually clunkier than the fine orchid bark is) and you are all set.

Don't use that hairy-looking stuff in the pic you posted on the right. Your little guys will try to eat it ar some point and those long fibers do not digest, will tangle up in the digestive tract once inside and cause serious problems (serious enough to need veterinarian intervention and frequently death). Think about what would happen to a human who swallowed a couple feet of fishing line.

Coco coir, and fine grade Fir bark (orchid Bark/Fir Bark) are what you want. Little tortoises need little pieces of bark to walk on, not big chunky pieces. (But also not tiny enough to swallow easily).

There are pictures of the better types to get in the links that were provided.

NEVER use cedar around your torts, that will kill them. And types of coniferous wood - except fir - can make them sick, too, plus ooze sticky resin all over the place..

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Is this OK? Coco bark? I can't seem to get the coir stuff until it's delivered. Is there another dirt type material that's similar?

As @COmtnLady has covered I wouldn’t use this no, you definitely want to avoid the fibrous strands like that, see if you can get your hands on the fine grade orchid bark or pure coco coir, even if you have to wait for delivery, at least they’ll have the right stuff in a few days and you can save your money from buying this, it’s no good

 

[Maggie3fan]

I really appreciate the feedback!! The tank is about 95% covered with a heavy wooden top and the one corner us where their light is attached and the main heat source besides the indoor temp. Rn the low in Texas where we are is around 30-408sh at night and actually gets up to 50-60ish during the day, off and on, during the 'winter'! Def not an actual typical winter climate like other places in the u.s! Lol! So, the humidity thing...how in the world do i achieve and gage that?

Your Sulcata yearling NEED 80 to 85 degrees and 85 to 90% humidity...both look small for a year old...There is definite bullying going on...that's not affection, it's one bullying the other. Please read those care sheets that Tom gave you the link to...he is one of our foremost experts in keeping Sulcata, I also keep them and right now I have an 11 month old who is bigger than the plan of my hand and almost 2 pounds...you seriously need to change a lot about how you keep those yearlings...this is the best care sheet...

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise​

Here is an example of what can happen with not the right temp, humidity, diet and exercise...
this is my small tort...compare his size in my hand as opposed to the ones you hold with your fingers...
yes, all torts grow at different rates...but your keeping is off and they are small...please let us help you...

 

[TortyMama♡]

Your Sulcata yearling NEED 80 to 85 degrees and 85 to 90% humidity...both look small for a year old...There is definite bullying going on...that's not affection, it's one bullying the other. Please read those care sheets that Tom gave you the link to...he is one of our foremost experts in keeping Sulcata, I also keep them and right now I have an 11 month old who is bigger than the plan of my hand and almost 2 pounds...you seriously need to change a lot about how you keep those yearlings...this is the best care sheet...

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise​

Here is an example of what can happen with not the right temp, humidity, diet and exercise...View attachment 386253
this is my small tort...compare his size in my hand as opposed to the ones you hold with your fingers...View attachment 386254
yes, all torts grow at different rates...but your keeping is off and they are small...please let us help you...

They were born sometime in late September or so bc I posted a photo of us driving home w/them the first day we had them and that was October 21 2024. So they will be a year this coming fall. Still have quite a ways to go. They seem perfectly healthy to me and they are both eating and drinking and moving around like they're fine! I mean obviously besides the humidity levels that I need to learn and a few other minor details, I think they're growing and acting like they're happy. Now I did not know abt them not doing good in pairs. That I will also most definitely take care of. I mean that is, afterall, why I'm here to begin with! Gah Lee if they were already a year old and still so small then obviously I would know something isn't right! Lol! It's sad to think that it's such a common thing for people to have tortoises and not take care of them correctly, as I'm sure yall on this forum have seen more times than not. I definitely have a lot to learn but I am also very eager to as well! I really love them! Thank you for your feedback and advice as well!

 

[Maggie3fan]

They were born sometime in late September or so bc I posted a photo of us driving home w/them the first day we had them and that was October 21 2024. So they will be a year this coming fall. Still have quite a ways to go. They seem perfectly healthy to me and they are both eating and drinking and moving around like they're fine! I mean obviously besides the humidity levels that I need to learn and a few other minor details, I think they're growing and acting like they're happy. Now I did not know abt them not doing good in pairs. That I will also most definitely take care of. I mean that is, afterall, why I'm here to begin with! Gah Lee if they were already a year old and still so small then obviously I would know something isn't right! Lol! It's sad to think that it's such a common thing for people to have tortoises and not take care of them correctly, as I'm sure yall on this forum have seen more times than not. I definitely have a lot to learn but I am also very eager to as well! I really love them! Thank you for your feedback and advice as well!

Most people start out listening to the wrong instructions and there in is the problem...People take c are of their torts in the way that we did many years ago...most people have good intentions, they just don't know...

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

They were born sometime in late September or so bc I posted a photo of us driving home w/them the first day we had them and that was October 21 2024. So they will be a year this coming fall. Still have quite a ways to go. They seem perfectly healthy to me and they are both eating and drinking and moving around like they're fine! I mean obviously besides the humidity levels that I need to learn and a few other minor details, I think they're growing and acting like they're happy. Now I did not know abt them not doing good in pairs. That I will also most definitely take care of. I mean that is, afterall, why I'm here to begin with! Gah Lee if they were already a year old and still so small then obviously I would know something isn't right! Lol! It's sad to think that it's such a common thing for people to have tortoises and not take care of them correctly, as I'm sure yall on this forum have seen more times than not. I definitely have a lot to learn but I am also very eager to as well! I really love them! Thank you for your feedback and advice as well!

Good to hear!

 

[Maggie3fan]

Good to hear!

I agree! So I hope I am forgiven by the op as I sure thought something else...whew!